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Messages - Vital Pluymers

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46
Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten.  ;)

However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.

Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below  :yellow-meeple:

As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...

We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? 
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?

Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.

Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?

Any thoughts?

For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.

How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).

The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?

Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):



Based on WICA, we already know that:
  • When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
  • Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road


Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...


Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
  • Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
  • Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
  • Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
  • Black's watchtower is worth 5 points

Option B: We consider the whole double tile
  • Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
  • Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
  • Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
  • Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)

I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...

What do you think?

I don't like option A at all...

I would choose option B with the green rules. That seems to be consequent with the rules of dragon movement and occupied spaces in general. You always consider spaces around the tile: normally 9, 12 for German castles and 6 for castles. If one of the spaces contains a double tile that extends that surrounding space to the outside, that part of the double tile is considered too.

47
Thanks for the suggestion!

In the meantime I have updated the following pages to include the clarifications in this topic. More to come soon.

* C2 Halflings:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings
* C2 German castles:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

All your comments are welcome.

Very nice job, Meepledrone!
I have to admit that these new rules regarding tiles versus spaces solve a lot of issues and are much easier to interpret and to apply.
So, it is definitely an improvement.
Now, if HiG would also reconsider the ringmaster rules, maybe I can start to like them a little bit after all  >:D

A small remark about the German Castle rules:

Quote
Scoring of a completed castle
A castle can be completed and scored the same way as monasteries. As soon as the castle is surrounded by other Land tiles, you, the lord gets 12 points and take your meeple back to your stash.

At the end of the game all Land tiles surrounding an incomplete castle score one point. The Castle tile itself counts as 2 points.

That last line is incorrect as two halfling tiles on the same surrounding space would still only score 1 point.
Wouldn't it be more correct to also use spaces in these rules:

Scoring of a completed castle
A castle can be completed and scored the same way as monasteries. As soon as the spaces surrounding the castle are occupied by other Land tiles, you, the lord gets 12 points and take your meeple back to your stash.

At the end of the game all spaces occupied by land tiles surrounding an incomplete castle score one point. The Castle tile itself counts as 2 points.


I know you have explained it thoroughly in the Halfling rules, but I think it's better also to include the interaction with Halflings also in the German Castle rules.




48
Official Rules / Re: Question about fliers and halflings
« on: February 02, 2021, 02:26:46 PM »
Hey there, I have a question,

Since the halflings are counted as one when there’s no complete tile, but also counts as one When 2 halflings connect, is this information on WICA still up to date?

The "new" rules about halflings were "clarified" only a few days ago. So, that means that there is a lot of information on WICA now that needs to be updated. The interaction with the flier is indeed one of them.

49
Official Rules / Re: Question about messages and negative points
« on: February 02, 2021, 02:20:47 PM »
So there is very big mess in C2 rules.

Not only in the rules  >:D

50
Official Rules / Re: Question about messages and negative points
« on: February 02, 2021, 01:27:32 PM »
Yesterday I had a long monologue with HiG on Discord after the issue with the scoring events during the turn sequence showed up again...
* I included in my posts a long explanation on how the shepherd actions in Exp.9 should be interpreted from reading the rules in English and German and from the Turn Sequence in Big Box 5, where the shepherd actions are included in Phase 2.
* I also showed them how misleading the rules for the abbot are, and also cross referenced them to the Turn Summary in Big Box 6 that shows the abbot removal happening in Phase 2.
* Additionally, I showed them how confusing the rules about the dragon are in Exp. 3 (volcano and dragon tiles) and demonstrated that Step 1b should be Step 2b accoring the German wording of the rules and the Turn Sequence in Big Box 3.

As per today's reply, it seems that the HiG team are going to sit down and discuss all these dark spots in the rules in order to decide what clarifications are needed. I cross my fingers...  ;D

Finally!  ;)
Curious to know what will be the outcome...

51
Official Rules / Re: Question about messages and negative points
« on: February 01, 2021, 04:06:58 AM »
Here you can find some info on key people at HiG...  :)

https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html

We have been talking to Johannes and Freddy on Discord.

Point proven, I guess!
Carcassonne is not even mentioned in both people's biography or favorite games, so what do they know?
I am sure there is much more expertise combined in this forum than in the whole HiG team.

I don't say that all the clarifications that were provided lately are bad. Some of them would make the game easier to understand and to explain. But it is impossible to create overall rules if you are ignoring some of the game elements. If you release a game or an expansion, it is normal that you think about the interaction of all elements of the game. And you provide a decent service to the fans and customers that are paying for it.

52
Official Rules / Re: Question about messages and negative points
« on: January 31, 2021, 03:05:43 PM »
Yes... This is our only way to deal with the issue. Whatever the response is regarding the abbot, we will have to extrapolate for the other expansions. And nailing down the scoring events in the turn sequence is the corner stone to see how to appraoch the whole issue.

So we are allowed to ask about:
- Interactions between expansions within a Big Box
- Interaction between major expansions
- Clarifications about the rules of any expansion (major or minor)

We cannot ask about interactions with minor expansions... unless they feel magnanimous and provide a hint.

Sorry guys, but I don't even know why you care about anything that guy is saying. His replies made clear that he is not even aware of the clarifications given in the past. Why should we care about his bla bla bla if he has not taken into account any interactions with the smaller expansions that were released by... guess what, the company he is representing and you are asking clarifications from...

And on top of that, we have to be careful and thankful, otherwise we might end up on a blacklist. We might be punished and we won't get any answers anymore...

Give me a break...

53
In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile

So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).

The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything...  :o

Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do  :yellow-meeple:

I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).


It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).

Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile).  :yellow-meeple:

Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh?  >:D

I believe the wording of corinthiens13 is easier to comprehend.

54
General / Re: Why endless expansions? Playing the Original - An opinion
« on: January 28, 2021, 04:01:39 AM »
Would be even more special with 73 tiles though :D

Indeed!  :D

55
So it seems that the ringmaster only provides ringmaster points when placed on the following features:
- Roads
- Cities
- Monasteries
- Fields (even when scored due to a barn - only case admitted in the rules)

"- Monasteries" - even if they are placed on tiles from other expansions (without taking in consideration abbeys, shrines, Darmstadt churches, German monasteries)?

"There is a edge case mentioned for expansion 5 but not for 8." - "expansion 5"? The wagon uses similar rules?

I think that this clarification is how it is because this is the simplest way; no effort from HiG in explaining what happens with castles and German castles (the only 2 cases where there are less or more than 9 tiles).

You're right. German Castles needs an extra clarification too.

56
I'd suggest that, when we use german/dutch/japanese monasteries by replacing base game tiles, then they become part of base game features as long as they are played as a base game feature.

So a ringmaster placed as a monk on a German monastery replacing base game tiles still gets his ringmaster bonus  :yellow-meeple:

But not when you place the ringmaster on a similar abbey of Darmstadt monastery?
It is a shame, but no, according to those clarifications...

And not when you don't replace the base game monasteries by German monasteries?
It's a shame too, but then they are an expansion not part of the base game, so...  :'(

But at least I think we can save something by considering the German monasteries are part of the base game if they replace base game monasteries, that's the least we can do  :yellow-meeple:

We can also revolt, a word you always like to use, and tell HiG that they are wrong and should consider a better and more consequent solution. You already have my support. And Meepledrone's  8)

57
Now stating that you only get a bonus for a base game feature is really stupid. You get the bonus for a monastery, but not for an abbey, shrine, etc., features that work according to the exact same mechanics. Where is the logic behind this?

And what about German Monasteries/Dutach(Belgian) Monasteries/Japanese Buildings.

Direct in rules are, that you have to remove original Monasteries and replace them with new one.

Then Ringmaster not applies for German Monasteries, because it's expansion, event that replace basic game feature?

I'd suggest that, when we use german/dutch/japanese monasteries by replacing base game tiles, then they become part of base game features as long as they are played as a base game feature.

So a ringmaster placed as a monk on a German monastery replacing base game tiles still gets his ringmaster bonus  :yellow-meeple:

But not when you place the ringmaster on a similar abbey of Darmstadt monastery?
And not when you don't replace the base game monasteries by German monasteries?

Come on, corinthiens13, you have to admit that this really is not making any sense.

58
Now stating that you only get a bonus for a base game feature is really stupid. You get the bonus for a monastery, but not for an abbey, shrine, etc., features that work according to the exact same mechanics. Where is the logic behind this?

And what about German Monasteries/Dutach(Belgian) Monasteries/Japanese Buildings.

Direct in rules are, that you have to remove original Monasteries and replace them with new one.

Then Ringmaster not applies for German Monasteries, because it's expansion, event that replace basic game feature?

True, no logic at all.
Anyhow, since we always play with a bag full of tiles, we never remove any monasteries anyway  ;D

59
Thanks Meepledrone for those clarifications! I think they will make the game easier to explain and understand  ;)

Especially for the barn!  :yellow-meeple:

I can also live with these clarifications. Although they are completely different compared to what we applied before, they are easier to understand, to explain and to apply. It's only a pity that they are not consequent regarding the Market op Leipzig roads which are clearly on both halves of the double tiles.

There will be a lot of work to do for Meepledrone and his team now  :D

But honestly, is there anyone who can understand the behaviour and attitude of HiG in this matter? These topics are discussed on this forum already for years now. If they had any respect for their fanbase, why didn't they intervene and helped us spontanously?

There could be two options:
(i) They read it, saw it, but just didn't care.
(ii) They didn't read anything on this forum dedicated to Carcassonne
I don't know which option I would consider the worst...

I own more than 350 different games. Also with other games, sometimes I have questions concerning some rules. When you go to the forum of BGG, in 95% of the cases you can find the answers easily, mostly because the designers or publishers are participating on the forums and just clarify how the games should be played.
There were a few cases in which I could not find the answer. When I contacted the author or publisher, I always received a clear personal answer within a week!

On that same BGG site, as on many different other sites dedicated to boardgames, our forum and WICA are praised and linked as the holy bible of Carcassonne. Then can someone explain to me why HiG and their complete team let us struggle for so long with our questions? They should feel awfully ashamed!

60
Today we got the following clarification from Johannes (HiG) on the HiG Discord server.
[A2] No it's referring to everything. Otherwise you will run into problems (like the castle), because there are no 8 tiles surrounding it.  Same thing would apply to German monasteries.

Except for the castle and German Castle, there are no other cases for which it could lead to possible problems. The eight spaces around the tile are always easy to spot as circus tiles are always normal shaped rectangular tiles.

Regarding castles, there would be two options:
(i) Ringmasters on castles do not get any bonuses.
(ii) For ringmasters on bonuses, only circus tiles in the castles fief are triggering the bonus.
All problems would have been solved.

For German Castles, it is a little more complicated if you want to respect the eight spaces around the tile. Maybe an option would be to choose the left or right side from the double tile  :D

Now stating that you only get a bonus for a base game feature is really stupid. You get the bonus for a monastery, but not for an abbey, shrine, etc., features that work according to the exact same mechanics. Where is the logic behind this?

I will not play according to these rules. Ringmasters get bonuses for all completed features they are occupying. For castles I will apply option (ii).

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