Messages

871

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: November 25, 2019, 01:40:10 AM »

Hi everyone,

The French order of play has been updated to ver 4.0, tollkeepers expansion rules have been added.

Have a nice day !

872

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: September 05, 2019, 01:27:43 PM »

Hi,

I had my Mega Carcassonne game with every major, mini and promo expansions this weekend and I didn't get any new questions (we just didn't play the pest to save some time, and still we couldn't finish every tiles after 8 hours). I guess we already solved a lot of situations with our discussions here.

For the castles, in my french rules (that have been updated to ver 3.9.2), I decided to keep the
 - Points as if the Lord owned the feature (ignoring other meeple's bonuses)
 - + Points linked to the Lord himself considering the 6 adjacent tiles (Leipzig, fairy and circus master)
As I still think this way is easier to understand and the official rules doesn't contradicts this.

But meepledrone, I agree your way of scoring castles do also fits the official rules 

Cheers !

873

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 31, 2019, 01:27:31 PM »

Hi,

I don't have time to answer all those quizz now, but here's what I'm not sure for example 4C, if one of the red tunnel tokens was missing and so the city is the only completed feature:
- Blue mayor gets 0 points as he doesn't own the structure (or do he still get 3 mage points?)
- Yellow mayor gets 0 points
- Red ringmaster gets core city points (6 for the city, 3 for the mage, 1 for the little building on a city tile)

Correct ?

874

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 30, 2019, 01:08:33 PM »

Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.

Agreed !

The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):

...

I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.

I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.

Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.

I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.

I didn't see the CAR definition of "adjacent", but I think CAR exploits this issue (does a castle have adjacent tiles) in the most logical way, as the official rules doesn't clarify that (I also couldn't find anything in the official rules.

In my French rules, I'll keep this rules, at least until we have any official clarification:

• A meeple on a castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle (and so it's not possible to place a meeple on a castle using magic portals or fliers too)
• The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to the castle

This explains why a circus triggers a castle's scoring, and this also imply a ringmaster on a castle can get his bonus when scoring the castle. Plus, considering this rule already clarifies future questions with other expansion as this gives a base rule.

All in all:
* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)
* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.

------

My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:
1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring.
    - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.
2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked
    - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles
    - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles
3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved.
    - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)
4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.

This clarifies things a bit. So as we consider the castle meeple is not present on the scored structure (reason why he doesn't get wainwright points for his own meeple in that quarter), then the castle meeple also can't get coiners points for his own meeple on that quarter, as the castle meeple is not present on the city. Only Leipzig bonus for monasteries can be applied to the castle lord for his own meeple on the bookbinders quarter.

Correct ?

But one thing remains unclear with this order of castle's scoring: Why can't a mayor on a castle take points from roads, monasteries, city without pennants, if he's simply scoring as much points as the player having the most points on the structure, and he's also not considered as present on the structure itself ?

Cheers !

875

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 30, 2019, 04:18:25 AM »

Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,

I learn a lot from both of you.
+1 merit for you.

Hi,

I learned a lot from Meepledrone too

876

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 30, 2019, 12:50:28 AM »

* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.

Well, I thought when placing a meeple on a castle, you can get fruits if a tree's on the 6 adjacent tiles.
But on second thought, I realised you never really place a meeple on a castle, you place it on a small city tile and then you change it to a castle and move the meeple on the castle (both on the same turn, or on different turns if the meeple had been placed on the 1^st half of the city). So fruits can be harvested if present on the 8 tiles adjacent to the city tile on which the meeple has been placed (or on the tile itself). As you said, the castle doesn't interact with this.

* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)
* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.

To my point of view, those two actions are different than towers, dragon...etc as they are based on adjacent tiles and not on a specific tile. Tiles in a castle's fief may be considered as adjacent to the castle, and so the ringmaster may score its bonus, and a circus present on in a castle's fief completes the castle.

I know the official rules doesn't say anything about what tiles are considered adjacent to the castle, but I think saying a castle has a fief but no adjacent tiles is as much a house rule than saying the fief and adjacent tiles are the same 6 tiles (or do I miss something?).

So to me:

• A castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castle
• The 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to it (reason why a circus on those tiles triggers the castle's scoring) and so a ringmaster may have his bonus when scoring a castle (considering only the 6 adjacent tiles)

What do you think ? Is there any contradiction I'm missing about this in the official rules?


Oh, and one of my previous post remained an open question about what points are counted:

My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation with (if I understood it correctly) your explanations :
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.

• If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonus
• If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonus
• If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only once

This is, I think, too complicated and hard to understand for players that didn't hardly study the rules.

Situation with my understanding of the rules:
Same road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.

• If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonus
• If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus
• If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?


This would lead to this order of scoring a castle:
If one or more features have been completed in a castle's fief, the castle's owner choses from which he gets points:

1. The owner(s) (if there is one or more) of the feature scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. The castle is scored directly after the feature from which he gets points

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

• A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
• He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
 
• Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
• B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
• Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
• Little Buildings
• Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
• Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
• German Castles (for road and cities)
• Darmstadtium (for cities)
• Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
 
• C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
• Darmstadt churches
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Not ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile or including ringmaster but considering the 6 adjacent tiles, this has to be clarified
• Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
 
• D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):
• Darmstadt churches
• Watchtowers
• Ringmasters
• Fairy 3-point bonus
• Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Cheers !

877

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 27, 2019, 12:38:10 PM »

I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.

Maybe an approach that may fit the (incomplete) official rules could be :

• Any action affecting a specific tile (dragon, plague, tower, goldmines?, little buildings) do not interact with a meeple on a castle as he isn't on a specific tile
• But for any action a meeple can do with adjacent tiles (ringmaster bonus, fruit trees, circus), a meeple on a castle may also have it but for the 6 adjacent tiles only

What do you think ?

Cheers !

878

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 25, 2019, 08:27:54 AM »

Hi,

You have to choose wisely, as you've seen above. No always the castle will work in your favor so the evaluation order can be important.

Ok, so castles aren't scored first, but they are scored directly after the first triggering feature that has been scored in its fief (and so before scoring any other structure).

Just a note: Mage and Witch (for roads and cities)

That's right !

1. You may place the ringmaster on a castle, but the rules didn't specify how to score in a fief. So far WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.

I didn't think about that, but I think I agree with WICA

Ringmasters and watchtowers are independent bonus by definition, so a castle will never get points from them.
The other cases (Darmstadt churches, Fairy 3-point bonus and Markets of Leipzig for roads, cities and monasteries) work in a dual way:
i. When associated to a meeple scoring the feature, the bonus is added to the feature scoring and therefore the castle gets the bonus points through the feature.
ii. When associated to a meeple not scoring the feature, the independent bonus is not visible to the castle.

I understand bullet (ii) is the case you consider in section D above. So with "meeples present on the feature" you mean meeples present but without majority, right? If so, this cannot apply to Markets of Leipzig for roads.

My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:

Situation:
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.

• If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonus
• If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonus
• If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only once

This is, I think, complicated and so with my proposition:

Situation:
Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.

• If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonus
• If red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus
• If both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus

They simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?



And so here's my corrected proposition for counting castles:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :

1. The owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

2. Castles are scored directly after the first triggering feature that has been scored in its fief (and so before scoring any other structure)

3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

• A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
• He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
 
• Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
• B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
• Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
• Little Buildings
• Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
• Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
• German Castles (for road and cities)
• Darmstadtium (for cities)
• Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
 
• C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
• Darmstadt churches
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Not ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile
• Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
 
• D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):
• Darmstadt churches
• Watchtowers
• Ringmasters
• Fairy 3-point bonus
• Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

Cheers !

879

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 24, 2019, 12:33:52 AM »

You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.

The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed”, so it is scored directly after a feature is completed, and thus it is scored before counting the points for any other feature.

It's also based on the WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion."

You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

That's right, ok for "as if he is the owner of the structure"

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle owner

Correct, Darmstadt church bonus has to be moved to points C and D.

So here's my corrected proposition:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

• A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
• He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
 
• Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
• B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
• Mage and Witch (for cities)
• Little Buildings
• Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
• Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
• German Castles (for road and cities)
• Darmstadtium (for cities)
• Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
 
• C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
• Darmstadt churches
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Ringmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)
• Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
 
• D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:
• Darmstadt churches
• Watchtowers
• Ringmasters
• Fairy 3-point bonus
• Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !

880

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 23, 2019, 01:07:02 AM »

Hi everyone,

One thought after reading all your opinions on castle's matters, I'd like your opinion on this proposition that may be easier and, I think, may fit the rules :

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :

• A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
• He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
 
• Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
• B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
• Darmstadt churches
• Mage and Witch (for cities)
• Little Buildings
• Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
• Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
• German Castles (for road and cities)
• Darmstadtium (for cities)
• Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
 
• C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
• Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
• Ringmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)
• Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
• Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
 
• D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:
• Watchtowers
• Ringmasters
• Fairy 3-point bonus
• Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !

881

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 20, 2019, 12:11:57 AM »

Hi,

Thanks, so I updated the French rules and corrected the Market of Leipzig's scoring.

And just to be sure, if player A scores a town with 4 tiles (8 points), 3 pennants (+6 points) and a meeple on the coiner quarter (+ 3 points / pennant, so + 9 points), he gets 23 points. If player b has a robber beside player A's point meeple, player B gets half of all those points, including those coming from the market of Leipzig, so player B gets 12 points from his robber. And if player A has a castle next to his town, he gets twice 23 points, so 46 points. Correct ?

Cheers !

882

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 19, 2019, 12:09:01 AM »

I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Hi,

Thanks for the information. I looked at the scoring (during and at the end of the game) on WICA and I wasn't sure how to interpret it.

So market of Leipzig are, for every quarters, scored at the end of the feature's scoring (so they aren't reduced by the witch for example). But are they still part of the structure's points for wainwright and tanner's quarter (can be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or castle), and separate of the structure's points for the bookbinders and coiners quarter (can't be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or a castle) ?

Cheers!

883

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 16, 2019, 11:58:53 PM »

Hi corinthiens13,

Nice work!

I just realized the Labyrinth tile on page 11 is the C1 tile. It is certainly more eye-catching than its C2 counterpart.

Cheers!

Hi,

Exactly, I must admit I really don't like the c2 labyrinth tile. So this one will remain c1 

Cheers!

884

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 16, 2019, 09:57:48 AM »

Hi,

Thanks for all your answers ! I updated the document to ver 3.8, corrected Solovei Razboynik and Vodyanoy's rules, plus a few other improvements.

Cheers !

885

Official Rules / Re: Order of play in french

« on: August 13, 2019, 01:49:36 AM »

You could create a couple fan tiles to replicate the same effect 

Hi,

That'd be an idea 

One new question for Vodyanoy, I think we should add a note that if Vodyanoy's tile is placed next to a public bath, it doesn't affect the public bath (else it wouldn't be possible to complete any feature without losing a meeple for the rest of the game (it'd go on the public bath and then on vodyanoy and it isn't possible to get them back), that wouldn't make any sense).

I guess Vodyanoy affects every other meeples but it doesn't affect:
 - The usual "untouchable" castles, city of Carcassonne, city of Leipzig and barns
 - Neutral figures (fairy, mage, witch, dragon...etc)
 - Special figures (builder, pig, shepherd)

Is that correct ?

Cheers !