Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015

[benbever]

Is the City of Carcassonne 1 or 12 tiles now; this will affect cloister scoring too.  What about the WoF?

Both the Russian City of Carcassonne piece and the Wheel of Fortune piece have white lines on them indicating that they're separate tiles, just in one piece for ease of handling. The german castle tiles have no such line, and an extra rule that they count as 1 tile (of 1x2 size). The City and Wheel are 12 and 16 tiles respectively, just in one playing piece.

[Decar]

It can score 8 or 9 points depending on the orientation of the castle tile. With more castle tiles next to the completed cloister it could score between 5 points (cloister surrounded by 4 castles) and 9 points (castle tiles facing away).

It is not possible to score 5 points.  The first rule of the Castle is that they cannot be played with corners touching.  Thus four cannot fit around a cloister.

If a German Castle is only 1 tile, why does it score 2 points when it is completed?

Both the Russian City of Carcassonne piece and the Wheel of Fortune piece have white lines on them indicating that they're separate tiles, just in one piece for ease of handling. The german castle tiles have no such line, and an extra rule that they count as 1 tile (of 1x2 size). The City and Wheel are 12 and 16 tiles respectively, just in one playing piece.

The Russian Carcassonne City tile was given away from HiG at Essen; so shouldn't be considered the Russian City of Carcassonne tile any more.  There is no rule indicating that white lines or marks indicate separate tiles. The initial publication does not contain the extra rule regarding the Castles as one tile.

[benbever]

It is not possible to score 5 points.  The first rule of the Castle is that they cannot be played with corners touching.  Thus four cannot fit around a cloister.

True, a max of two castles can border a cloister, for 7 to 9 points for a completed cloister (with the rules in these answers). I edited my previous post.

As to why a castle tile is worth 2 points when counting a completed (surrounded) castle (always worth 10+2=12 points) and the same castle tile is worth only 1 point when around a cloister... I have no idea. Maybe it's a bonus point because the castle is harder to complete, or because it's a fancy castle?

If the castle tile *would* be worth 2 points around a cloister then completed cloisters could get 9 to 13 points (with 4 adjacent castles to the cloisters.)

Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.

It's worth noting that the castles in germany rules specifically explain the interaction with roads, cities and other castles (not allowed), but leave out cloisters. I get the idea the expansion is more promotional and less serious.

This also affects German Klosters and Dutch Kloosters. My guess is that they count as 1 tile (1 point) for those as well.

The Russian Carcassonne City tile was given away from HiG at Essen; so shouldn't be considered the Russian City of Carcassonne tile any more.  There is no rule indicating that white lines or marks indicate separate tiles. The initial publication does not contain the extra rule regarding the Castles as one tile.

I know about the HiG Carcassonne city piece, but I wasn't sure if it has the (white) lines on it, like the Russian version. The CAS refers to the WoF as a board consisting of 16 (4x4) tiles. And to Carcassonne city as a starting tile of 12 (3x4) tiles. I think the white lines are clear enough in their intent.
The Castle tiles are refered to as 6 double sized tiles in the rules. They're always called a single tile, just of double size. Never as 2 tiles in one piece or 2 tiles at once or 2 connected tiles.

[Decar]

As to why a castle tile is worth 2 points when counting a completed (surrounded) castle (always worth 10+2=12 points) and the same castle tile is worth only 1 point when around a cloister... I have no idea. Maybe it's a bonus point because the castle is harder to complete, or because it's a fancy castle?

Perhaps the original designer thought it was 2-tiles, so when completed it was worth two-points.

If the castle tile *would* be worth 2 points around a cloister then completed cloisters could get 9 to 13 points (with 4 adjacent castles to the cloisters.)

Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.

This makes even less sense.  Rewriting the original base game rules to fit this mini-expansion is clearly careless.

The Castle tiles are refered to as 6 double sized tiles in the rules. They're always called a single tile, just of double size. Never as 2 tiles in one piece or 2 tiles at once or 2 connected tiles.

This is inaccurate.  The German rules call them "Doppel-Landschaftplättchen".  They are literally double-landscape-tiles; they should be considered as such: 2 landscape tiles.

[danisthirty]

I’ve been giving this some thought and there’s a lot I don’t like about the idea of the German Castle tiles being treated as one tile. I know that physically it’s only one tile and I’m trying to respect HiG’s wishes to stick to that, but in every other sense it is the equivalent of two tiles and there’s a lot that doesn’t work properly when you try to deny this.

For one thing, there’s towers. Now we’re saying that if a GC is orthogonally adjacent to a tower, the tower can reach further in one direction than it can in the other. Yes it’s the same number of tiles in each direction, fine, but in terms of the aesthetic of the game the tower is now wonky and aesthetics are very important to a lot of people here. Another thing that now bothers me about towers is that if half of the double-tile is orthogonally adjacent to a tower foundation and there is a meeple on the other half of the tile (which isn’t adjacent to the tower), can that meeple be captured even though it isn't directly orthogonally adjacent to the tower? I assume that it can because it’s one tile and half of the tile is within reach of the tower. This isn’t in keeping with the theme and imagery behind the idea of the tower though.

Another ugly consequence is that the GCs now act as a kind of launchpad for the dragon. Normally he can move orthogonally in any direction by one tile. In most cases this gives him 3 options (except on his first movement of the phase in which it could be 4), but if he can reach a GC he now has 5 options and can travel across the board (in terms of actual distance rather than tiles visited) much more quickly, especially if he’s able to reach two GCs in the same turn! Similar inconsistencies will also be experienced with expansions such as The Fliers and German Monasteries.

Part of the joy of the game is that the landscape that develops is supposed to represent an actual countryside landscape. Pretending that two square kilometres is actually one square kilometre (or whatever the scale is) simply because a physical game tile that represents it is, is to introduce some major geographical distortions that will corrupt the game and spoil it for many players.

[Decar]

Good points Dan.  I've drawn up a diagram to explain how the tower's reach could be affected by the German Castle with the rule. 

On the left is Tower with range 3.  On the right is a Tower with the same range but near some German Castles.

[Halfling]

Hi Dan,
On the flip side the German Castles can be played with many expansions that do not incur these issues. Namely all the favourites I&C, T&B as well as any number of the smaller ones.

Personally I think that the extra moving ability for the dragon will add to the chances of meeple eating which I am all for. That is the main reason for playing that expansion after all!

[danisthirty]

Hi Dan,
On the flip side the German Castles can be played with many expansions that do not incur these issues. Namely all the favourites I&C, T&B as well as any number of the smaller ones.

Personally I think that the extra moving ability for the dragon will add to the chances of meeple eating which I am all for. That is the main reason for playing that expansion after all!

Very true! But it would be a shame to exclude certain expansions on the grounds that they aren't properly compatible with others. One of the goals of the CAR (and this site) is to enable players to play any combinations of expansions according to the official rules with all the relevant clarifications. So far we've managed this very successfully; it would be more than a shame to put all this behind us unnecessarily purely because of these clarifications over the GCs.

[Decar]

I have a Question.

Above it states:

The German castle has more a function like a cloister.

Does this mean they can enter into battles with the cult.  Does it also mean a cult cannot be played near 2 castles or a castle and a cloister.  Can castles be used to escape besieged cities?

[jungleboy]

This is starting to get a bit messy!

Let's take a step back for a minute.

These are the complications listed so far in this thread arising from considering German Castles as one tile:

- barn placement
- dragon movement
- tower range
- plague range
- cloister scoring
- German/Dutch monastery scoring

There are quite possibly some more as well.

IF German Castles were considered two tiles, and not one, what would the complications be?

(I suspect that there won't be as many. And if that's the case, maybe HiG should consider changing their stance from one tile to two tiles.)

[benbever]

Perhaps the original designer thought it was 2-tiles, so when completed it was worth two-points.

That is what you were implying. And could be true. Or he could just have thought that it was 1 tile, but double the size so double points. Or it could be simple that 11 points isn't a nice round and easy to remember score and 12 is.

Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.

This makes even less sense.  Rewriting the original base game rules to fit this mini-expansion is clearly careless.

Hence why I said I'm not a fan of that option. Or the counts as 2 tiles option. imho the 1 tile option provides the simplest solutions.

This is inaccurate.  The German rules call them "Doppel-Landschaftplättchen".  They are literally double-landscape-tiles; they should be considered as such: 2 landscape tiles.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQYmlNdHFMU2JGNms/view Here are the german rules. It states "6 Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". Later simply called "Burgplättchen".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQSTUtM2hzakNDNmc/view In english it's "double-sized Landscape Tiles". Later called "Castle tile".
They're called double (sized) landscape tiles. Never are they called double tiles. There is no mention of 6 tiles consisting of 2 tiles. Just 6 bigger tiles.

I've drawn up a diagram to explain how the tower's reach could be affected by the German Castle with the rule...On the right is a Tower with the same range but near some German Castles.

There's an error in the right diagram. The lower castle tile is indeed within reach, and so is the tile below the castle tile and below the tower, but the tile to the right of that is not within reach of the tower, it's not in a straight line down from the tower.
This is the same principle as with the fliers in question 6a and 6b of this topic.

I’ve been giving this some thought and there’s a lot I don’t like about the idea of the German Castle tiles being treated as one tile...
Now we’re saying that if a GC is orthogonally adjacent to a tower, the tower can reach further in one direction than it can in the other. Yes it’s the same number of tiles in each direction, fine, but in terms of the aesthetic of the game the tower is now wonky and aesthetics are very important to a lot of people here. Another thing that now bothers me about towers is that if half of the double-tile is orthogonally adjacent to a tower foundation and there is a meeple on the other half of the tile (which isn’t adjacent to the tower), can that meeple be captured even though it isn't directly orthogonally adjacent to the tower? I assume that it can because it’s one tile ...
Another ugly consequence is that the GCs now act as a kind of launchpad for the dragon...
Part of the joy of the game is that the landscape that develops is supposed to represent an actual countryside landscape. Pretending that two square kilometres is actually one square kilometre (or whatever the scale is) simply because a physical game tile that represents it is, is to introduce some major geographical distortions that will corrupt the game and spoil it for many players.

Personally I like the 1 tile rule, and all issues it brings are pretty easily resolved by just remembering it's 1 tile. I like the extra options for the dragon (and fleas), and the cloister and klooster scoring. The landscape being "warped" in scale is a minus, but it's not really a visible effect and doesn't bother me much. Towers capturing a follower on a feature on the half of the castle tile that isn't in a straight line is also a minus. But it would be very rare in an actual game.
I just love consistency and logic in rules, so it's either 1 tile for everything, or 2 tiles in 1 piece played at once for everything.

[danisthirty]

I just love consistency and logic in rules, so it's either 1 tile for everything, or 2 tiles in 1 piece played at once for everything.

Same here! Which is why I'd rather they were recognised as representing two tiles since this is the area that they occupy on the landscape. All things considered, this seems like a far more consistent and logical approach.

[jungleboy]

I think part of the confusion comes from the Halflings. The Halflings are considered one full tile for things like cloister scoring etc. And this seems to work well. So when they made double tiles, perhaps they decided to stick to the same idea. But it looks like the German Castles create more complications than the Halflings in this way.

[danisthirty]

I think part of the confusion comes from the Halflings. The Halflings are considered one full tile for things like cloister scoring etc. And this seems to work well. So when they made double tiles, perhaps they decided to stick to the same idea. But it looks like the German Castles create more complications than the Halflings in this way.

Agree.

These are the complications listed so far in this thread arising from considering German Castles as one tile:

- barn placement
- dragon movement
- tower range
- plague range
- cloister scoring
- German/Dutch monastery scoring

- fliers (added by Dan)

There are quite possibly some more as well.

IF German Castles were considered two tiles, and not one, what would the complications be?

I dare say that others here would be able to come up with something, but for me, I would be happy that 99% of likely circumstances (probably more) are catered for simply by recognising that these are two tiles.

[benbever]

Does this mean they can enter into battles with the cult.  Does it also mean a cult cannot be played near 2 castles or a castle and a cloister.  Can castles be used to escape besieged cities?

It says "like a cloister" as a comparison, not "as a cloister". German castles competing with cults would be silly. Escaping besieged cities to a german castle would make some sense, but there's nothing in the rules about that.

@jungleboy

If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).

barn placement would likely be allowed if it's 2 tiles and likely not if it's 1 tile (only 3 corners)
dragon movement, tower range, plague range, cloister scoring and German/Dutch monastery scoring can all be easily resolved by both options. With one option you just have to remember it is and counts as 1 tile, and with the other option you just have to remember it counts as two landscape tiles.