Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Meepledrone on September 27, 2022, 09:59:39 AM
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I sent a few questions about Exp. 11 - Ghosts, Castles & Cemeteries to Johannes Natterer (HiG) and we got the following clarifications.
Following Kettlefish's tradition...
Question in BLUE
Answer in GREEN
Still open in RED
My own comments in MAROON
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[Q1] Is the feature in the middle of the 2x2 starting tile a proper castle or just some ruins that serve as decoration to separate fields and end roads?
[A1] It’s just a decoration.
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[Q2] Let's assume a city with 2 red meeples and 1 black meeple which has a ghost added to it. The red player has the majority in this case. The city has 5 tiles and 1 coat of arms (see image below):
1) Does the black player score 0 points, or -2 points due to the ghost added to it?
2) Does the red player score 12 points, or 10 points for the city due to the ghost in the city?
[A2] Here you are the answers:
1) You only score if you have a majority. Therefore black does get 0 points.
2) You only get -2 points, if the ghost is with your meeple. Therefore red receives 12 points.
The value of a feature is not affected by the ghosts assigned to the meeples placed on it. Ghosts affect those players with the majority, and therefore scoring for the feature. The rest of the players on the feature not scoring for it will not be penalized by any ghosts added to their meeples.
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[Q3] If the 2x2 starting tile occupies two spaces adjacent to a completed monastery, how many points does the monk on the monastery score? (See image below)
A) 9 points because the starting tile is counted as 2 occupied squares adjacent to the monastery?
B) 8 points because the starting tile is counted as 1 tile adjacent to the monastery?
[A3] The answer is A. The starting tile is considered as 4 normal tiles [in C2 and C3].
This answer is consisten with the clarifications included in the 20th Anniversary rules for the double-sized river source tile and also with the clarifications provided for double-sized tiles in 01/2021.
A monastery completed surrounded by tiles scores 1 point for the space occupied by the monastery and 1 point for each of the 8 adjacent occupied spaces.
Note for C1: The starting tile would count as one large tile. In this case, the answer would be B, the monastery is surrounded by 7 tiles inclusing the 2x2 starting tile, and therefore, it is worth 8 points.
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[Q4] If the 2x2 starting tile occupies one of the squares adjacent to a completed castle as shown in the image below, how many points does the red player score?
A) 4 points because the there is no mist on the square adjacent to the castle (the 2x2 starting tile is not considered as a whole)?
B) 6 points because the castle considers all the mist banks on the 2x2 starting tile?
[A4] The answer is A. The starting tile is considered as 4 normal tiles [in C2 and C3].
Since the 2x2 starting tile is considered as 4 normal tiles for castles as well, each of these individual tiles will be analyzed separatery to determine whether each tile has mist banks.
In the example below, the section of the staring tile adjacent to the castle has no mist, so the castle is worg 4 points. Any mist banks on other quarters of the starting tile will not be considered by the castle in this case.
Note: The same approach should apply to the scoring of some features counting neighboring features:
* Watchtowers scoring for roads or cities (The Watchtowers)
* The Hermit Monastery and the Pilgrimage Route scoring tiles (The Land Surveyors)
Note for C1: The starting tile would count as one large tile. In this case, the answer would be B, that is, 6 points as the 2x2 tile includes 2 banks of mist.
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For Q3 and Q4, shouldn't that be obvious now that "tile" means occupied space in C2 and C3?
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HiG does not consider C1 in their minds... Let's add a note about this.
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What would happen if somebody wore to ask if it is possible to place a ghost in the City of Carcassonne, or acrobat and ghost related questions (like Do the minus points caused by ghosts also apply to pyramid scoring? or If 3 ghosts are assigned to a certain acrobat, what happens with the rest of the acrobats from that pyramid?).
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That it is up to you. Usual answer is that there will be none clarifications for expansion - expansion interaction.
We saw it multiple tiles. So on Discord HiG server.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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So, the Dragon counts the 2x2 tile like it is 4 different tiles!
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the same is true for the flying machines and the tower, no?
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For computing flying machine trajectories, tower ranges and German monastery scoring, they are considered as 4 individual tiles. For placing meeples, capturing meeples with a tower, or eating meeples with the dragon, whe should consider the tile whole tile, the same as with German castles.
This is one of the dualities/ambiguities I wanted to get clarified with HiG when dealing with:
* Watchtowers scoring for roads/cities (consider a square space) [1]
* Watchtowers scoring for meeples (consider whole tiles) [2]
* The big top scoring for meeples (consider whole tiles) [2]
* The Pilgrimage route scoring tile bonus scoring for roads (considers a squares space) [1]
* The Hermit Monastery scoring tiles penalty scoring for cities (considers a square space) [1]
* Castles scoring for features in their fief (consider a square space) [3]
[1] As clarified for Exp. 11 & Halflings
[2] As clarified for Exp. 3 & 4
[3] Fiefs in C2 should consider square spaces to be consistent with the scoring of monasteries, Exp. 11 & Halflings.
Note that a whole tile can be:
* A square tile
* One single triangular tile in a square space
* Two triangular tiles in a square space
* A double-sized tile
* A 2x2 tile
Note also that a square space can be:
* A space occupied by a square tile
* A space occupied by one single triangular tile
* A space occupied by two triangular tiles
* A space occupied by one half of a double-sized tile
* A space occupied by one fourth of a 2x2 tile
Do you agree?
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i agree
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IMO, the 2x2 starting tile is in fact 4 square, normal tile. Right?
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It would be nice to standardize on square spaces.
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IMO, the 2x2 starting tile is in fact 4 square, normal tile. Right?
The key is the missing lines between the square spaces. This is a long-standing discussion with HiG as I understood from @kettlefish. The German castle tiles had a line splitting the tile into two halves in the beginning, but it was later removed on purpose.
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No lines means one tile, unlike Count of Carcassonne or Wheel of fortune.
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If you check the inner part of the city of Carcassonne or the Wheel of Fortune, they have no lines. Just the outer part of the tiles. ;)
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Is this correct?
- 1 City of Carcassonne tile - 6 normal tiles
- 1 City of Leipzig tile - 1 double tile
- 20th Anniversary River starting tile - 1 double tile
- 1 German castle tile - 1 double tile
- Ghosts, castles and cemeteries starting tile(s) - 4 normal tiles
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The City of Carcassonne can be either 12 normal tiles or 1 giant tile in C1, or two 2x3 tiles in C2.
Leipzig is 4 double tiles.
There are six German castle double tiles.
The starting tile from Mists is one 2x2 tile.
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In other words...
If the dragon is placed on the 2x2 tile, it eats only from 1/4 of that 2x2 tile? Or from 4/4 from that 2x2 tile?
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Do you must place a ghost if you place the above tile (not the one marked with red)? Before answering, please note the following wording of the rules:
If you draw a tile with mist on it, you now have the option of bringing ghosts into play. It all depends on how you place the tile:
- Expand the mist: You place a tile with mist on it such that at least 1 side expands an existing mist bank. You must then add 1 ghost to another player's meeple on the game board. It doesn't matter if you finish the mist bank. You just have to expand it.
- Limit the mist: You place a tile with mist on it such that at least 1 misty side is placed next to an existing, mist-free tile. In this case, you must then add 1 ghost to one of your own meeples on the game board.
- It can happen that you simultaneously expand one mist bank while limiting another. In that case you must first add 1 ghost to another player's meeple on the game board, after which you must add 1 ghost to one of your own meeples on the game board.
See https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Ghosts,_Castles_and_Cemeteries#2a._Place_ghosts.
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This is not answer to last question but:
@Meepledrone you are in Esset.
By Exp 11 rules, there are two options with tile with mist.
1. You expand existing mist
2. You limit exisitng mist.
But we know, that you can place mist tile, which is not expandion existing mist, it is not limit existing mist, because it is creating ne mist.
What happend then? This need clarrification!
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If the mist is neither expanded nor limited, you do not need to place ghosts.
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I see, the beuty of that rule is here:
`you now have the option of bringing ghosts into play`
so it is not mandatory.
Cool :D
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If the mist is neither expanded nor limited, you do not need to place ghosts.
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In the image posted by me, it is limited, but it is limited by a non-misty tile... This is the question, in fact:
If you limit the mist by placing a non-misty tile, do you have to place a ghost?
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I see, the beuty of that rule is here:
`you now have the option of bringing ghosts into play`
so it is not mandatory.
Cool :D
If you draw a tile with mist on it, you now have the option of bringing ghosts into play. It all depends on how you place the tile:
- Expand the mist: You place a tile with mist on it such that at least 1 side expands an existing mist bank. You must then add 1 ghost to another player's meeple on the game board. It doesn't matter if you finish the mist bank. You just have to expand it.
- Limit the mist: You place a tile with mist on it such that at least 1 misty side is placed next to an existing, mist-free tile. In this case, you must then add 1 ghost to one of your own meeples on the game board.
- It can happen that you simultaneously expand one mist bank while limiting another. In that case you must first add 1 ghost to another player's meeple on the game board, after which you must add 1 ghost to one of your own meeples on the game board.
See https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Ghosts,_Castles_and_Cemeteries#2a._Place_ghosts.
This is the only option.
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If you limit the mist by placing a non-misty tile, do you have to place a ghost?
The rules clearly state that only misty tiles cause the placement of ghosts.
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In other words...
If the dragon is placed on the 2x2 tile, it eats only from 1/4 of that 2x2 tile? Or from 4/4 from that 2x2 tile?
The dragon will eat all the meeples on the 2x2 tile. The sames as when landing on a double-sized tile it will eat all the meeples on the tile except those in a special area such as the inner part of the city of Leipzig.
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The dragon will eat all the meeples on the 2x2 tile. The sames as when landing on a double-sized tile it will eat all the meeples on the tile except those in a special area such as the inner part of the city of Leipzig.
But the dragon still considers each occupied space for movement, correct?
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Correct!
The dragon moves following the grid of spaces. Nut when it lands on a space it will eat all the meeples on the tile, no matter if it is one square tile, 1 or 2 triangular tiles, one double-sized tile or a 2x2 tile.
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After checking the Geman rules, I noticed this:
German rules:
Limit the mist: You place a tile such that at least 1 misty side is placed next to a mist-free side. In this case, you must then add 1 ghost to one of your own meeples on the game board.
English rules:
Limit the mist: You place a tile with mist on it such that at least 1 misty side is placed next to an existing, mist-free tile. In this case, you must then add 1 ghost to one of your own meeples on the game board.
This means that the English rules are leaving out the case where you place a non-misty tile next to a misty edge and limit the mist. Too bad.
All in all, limiting the edge is both placing a misty edge next to a non-misty edge and vice versa, placing a non-misty edge next to a misty edge.
This means that:
1. ZMG added an extra constraint that is incorrect.
2. You must add a ghost to one of your meeples if you place the mist-free CFRR tile on top next to the starting tile:
(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6092.0;attach=17773)
I'm correcting WICA right away.
Thank you guys for spotting this issue in the English rules. And thanks to ZMG for giving us another opportunity to peruse the rules. >:D
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If you limit the mist by placing a non-misty tile, do you have to place a ghost?
The rules clearly state that only misty tiles cause the placement of ghosts.
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I had good reasons to ask. The ZMG rules clearly stated this. The HiG rules stated something else.
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This feels like a déjà vu... the ZMG rules for Big Box 6 & 7 and their mistakes all over again...
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This feels like a déjà vu... the ZMG rules for Big Box 6 & 7 and their mistakes all over again...
Don't forget the Tower!
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Ha ha ha! That was a good one...