The Princess – Element of the Week #4

[Whaleyland]

ELEMENT OF THE WEEK: THE PRINCESS

As an attempt to keep this forum someone on topic, each week a specific expansion element is chosen from among the various expansions that have released over the years. This is an opportunity for you, Carcassonne's biggest English-language fans, to discuss techniques and problems you have encountered over the years regarding specific expansion elements. All forms of critique – from the most positive to the most resolutely negative – are encouraged.

This week's element is THE PRINCESS, from The Princess & The Dragon (Expansion #3). This is one half of the titular elements from the expansion that brought rampaging dragons and upstart volcanoes to the Carcassonne countryside. The Princess is printed on City features and allows a player to boot a Knight off of that City (or they can simply ignore it and place a Follower). One of the more direct aggression elements from the series, The Princess provides an interesting way to liberate a City from a specific opponent or liberate your own Knight trapped in a massive mistake. Discuss your relationship with The Princess, as well as your strategies for taking advantage of this element.

Next Week's Topic: The King & the Robber Baron 

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1101.0

[Paul]

Those I play with, we rarely become real douche, rather we do what's neccessary to win, but not conquer. 

If I am in a good lead from everyone else, I'd try to tie the city with the other players by removing an opponent follower to share it if opponent has more followers.
  Unless it's a really good tile that fits so well in a spot that opponents feels like I should place it there, even if it means losing the city.  We strive for art and completion when we play.

Else, if I am behind in scoring, i'd make sure to win the city all for myself. 

[danisthirty]

My opinion may be somewhat biased because of the last time I played with this expansion (quite recently), but I was utterly ruthless with it and this turned out to be a key part of my strategy (much to my surprise).

Wherever possible, my favourite thing to do with the princess is to complete my opponent's city if it contains just one knight. The princess removes their knight leaving it unclaimed, and if the Phantom is also included (which it needs to be for this to make any sense) the city can then be claimed and completed in the same turn. Very, very annoying when it happens to you but very rewarding if you can do it to someone else! 

[jungleboy]

Wherever possible, my favourite thing to do with the princess is to complete my opponent's city if it contains just one knight. The princess removes their knight leaving it unclaimed, and if the Phantom is also included (which it needs to be for this to make any sense) the city can then be claimed and completed in the same turn.

FYI, you can't do this on the iOS app but you can on JCZ.

[Whaleyland]

I always like to wait a day before I respond to these since I post them. 

Anyway, I usually don't like the Princess, but that's because I play mostly two-player games. I've found that in two-player games, when you boot the opponent off of a feature, there is a good chance they're just going to put a Knight back on it the next turn. The only exception to this is when I'm able to complete the feature through the boot. Even though I don't get the points, they don't either, so it works out in the end. Playing with multiple players just increases the chances that the feature will be taken by somebody else. Thus, I usually ignore the feature and just place it with my own city. I have a few times rescued my own Knight, but that's pretty rare.

I never even thought of using the Phantom with the Princess & the Dragon, though. That's a great idea. Speaking of which, I think the Phantom should be immune to the Dragon since it's transparent. I can't see how a Dragon (or Tower, or Catapult, etc.) would be able to successfully eat something that's fully permeable.

[MrNumbers]

Wherever possible, my favourite thing to do with the princess is to complete my opponent's city if it contains just one knight. The princess removes their knight leaving it unclaimed, and if the Phantom is also included (which it needs to be for this to make any sense) the city can then be claimed and completed in the same turn.

FYI, you can't do this on the iOS app but you can on JCZ.

It is against the rules, BTW!
See note 386 on p.125!
So, these actions were illegal in our World Cup games.

[danisthirty]

Wherever possible, my favourite thing to do with the princess is to complete my opponent's city if it contains just one knight. The princess removes their knight leaving it unclaimed, and if the Phantom is also included (which it needs to be for this to make any sense) the city can then be claimed and completed in the same turn.

FYI, you can't do this on the iOS app but you can on JCZ.

It is against the rules, BTW!
See note 386 on p.125!
So, these actions were illegal in our World Cup games.

That is a shame.  Should this be pointed out to farin?

I didn't get far enough to do this in the World Cup for this to have made any difference as Princess & Dragon was only included in the semi-final and I got knocked out in the quarter-finals. The only people it could have affected are you, jungleboy, Carcking and quevy.

[jungleboy]

Wherever possible, my favourite thing to do with the princess is to complete my opponent's city if it contains just one knight. The princess removes their knight leaving it unclaimed, and if the Phantom is also included (which it needs to be for this to make any sense) the city can then be claimed and completed in the same turn.

FYI, you can't do this on the iOS app but you can on JCZ.

It is against the rules, BTW!
See note 386 on p.125!
So, these actions were illegal in our World Cup games.

That is a shame.  Should this be pointed out to farin?

I didn't get far enough to do this in the World Cup for this to have made any difference as Princess & Dragon was only included in the semi-final and I got knocked out in the quarter-finals. The only people it could have affected are you, jungleboy, Carcking and quevy.

I used this move against MrNumbers in our semifinal. Luckily () he won the game so it didn't affect the outcome.

Although I would like to also point out that I didn't use it in the game in which we broke the river and I won 3-2. So that result still stands too!

[danisthirty]

Although I would like to also point out that I didn't use it in the game in which we broke the river and I won 3-2. So that result still stands too!

Ha ha. I love how you're clinging on to this "victory"! 

[Big Guy]

Great examples of princess use. I'd never thought of using Princess in combination with Phantoms either.

I'm usually not a fan of the princess. Like Whaley and others, I usually play 2-player games, and I've found the princess dynamic to be unbalanced: you force your opponent's knight off the board (or vise versa), and there's no way to defend. This is fundamentally different than challenging your opponent for control of something by attempting to add followers. When attempting to add to (and so challenge ownership of) a feature owned by someone else, you first need to establish your own incomplete feature nearby. This allows your opponent at least a small chance to defend and is in many ways one of the best parts of Carcassonne (taking ownership and KEEPING IT until you score). When the princess shows up, a knight can just 'disappear' on you. So its GREAT if you're the one who played the princess (in most cases), but its horrible for the person who's knight runs away.

The Phantom example only reinforces that there are balance issues. Lets say you own a city that has six tiles, and only one open side is left. On any opponents turn, if that player gets lucky and draws a CITY-ON-ONE-SIDE-ONLY princess tile, he can potentially cause a 28-point shift (using the princess in combination with his Phantom), without you have any way of seeing it coming.

Again, fun if you're the lucky one. Not so fun and 'unbalanced' if you're the one staring angrily at the lucky one.

[jungleboy]

Like Whaley and others, I usually play 2-player games, and I've found the princess dynamic to be unbalanced: you force your opponent's knight off the board (or vise versa), and there's no way to defend.

If you are building a significantly sized city, I would say the way to defend against possible use of the princess by your opponent is to try to get another meeple in there. I think this is generally true with all the destructive expansions - you might have enough followers to win the city in a non-destructive game, but in a destructive game, you should think about adding an extra meeple or two just in case.

[Christopher]

I like the princess as an addition, I think it adds another dimension to protecting your city by, as suggested, sticking some extra followers in it. The Princess can lead to some quite aggressive play, but it's not much different from slapping down a tower on top of your opponent as getting them that way. It's also good that removal of a knight counts as your move-wood phase, including the prevention of deploying a phantom, otherwise this would be far too powerful.

[danisthirty]

I like the princess as an addition, I think it adds another dimension to protecting your city by, as suggested, sticking some extra followers in it.

Adding additional knights is certainly one way of defending against the Princess but any city with more than one knight becomes a prime target for those who like to trap! It also means you have less meeples for use elsewhere.

It's also good that removal of a knight counts as your move-wood phase, including the prevention of deploying a phantom, otherwise this would be far too powerful.

I accept this, but I'm not a big fan of it as it seems to be a "special case" which isn't in keeping with how you can use the phantom elsewhere. It's still possible to remove an opposing knight with a tower and claim the city with your phantom if the placed tile extends that city. This is just as harsh as removal with a Princess tile, although somewhat more difficult to achieve.

[Christopher]

I like the princess as an addition, I think it adds another dimension to protecting your city by, as suggested, sticking some extra followers in it.

Adding additional knights is certainly one way of defending against the Princess but any city with more than one knight becomes a prime target for those who like to trap! It also means you have less meeples for use elsewhere.

Oh, absolutely. It would only be worth doing for a reasonably sized city. With your eyes peeled for trappers.

It's also good that removal of a knight counts as your move-wood phase, including the prevention of deploying a phantom, otherwise this would be far too powerful.

I accept this, but I'm not a big fan of it as it seems to be a "special case" which isn't in keeping with how you can use the phantom elsewhere. It's still possible to remove an opposing knight with a tower and claim the city with your phantom if the placed tile extends that city. This is just as harsh as removal with a Princess tile, although somewhat more difficult to achieve.

I know what you mean, but as you say, the tower is harder to achieve because you need to be able to place the foundation in the correct, knight adjacent location in order to get him. If you manage that, you deserve to stick your phantom in. The princess, on the other hand, you can just add to the city in any location and then pick which follower you like. That with a phantom would be very powerful! I was playing with Princesses plus Hills and Sheep a few months ago, and one player was smart enough to remove my follower from the hill instead of my other knight. The hill was sufficiently surrounded by tiles that to do the same with the tower, it would have taken several tower pieces. I agree that it feels like a special case though, which isn't ideal. I think it's just a necessary evil.

[dirk2112]

We do not play with the phantom.  That being said...

In the 3 player games we have had, it is very rare for the player that plays the princess to later take over the city.  It seems like it is always best to use it against the player in the lead and hope that the other players take the city and points.  I would say 3 out of 4 times, we use the princess tile to finish one of our cities or to at least increase its size rather than boot anyone.