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Messages - corinthiens13
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631
« on: January 27, 2021, 06:38:45 AM »
I think Andreas Kramer should firstly reread the rules again...
This can't be right... 
That would change the game play with the Count completely. The challenge and fun while playing with the Count is that you have to "sacrifice" a meeple (and a few points) to be able to deblock the meeple(s) you want to use. With this clarification, you would only have to sacrifice a few points...
As I said earlier, I think the rules goes totally in the way Andreas explained: If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne. If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...". The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).
632
« on: January 27, 2021, 05:52:39 AM »
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement"  (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? 
Hi again, I have some news  My interpretation was correct  I asked HiG about this (can we move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne), and the answer I got from Andreas Kramer is Yes Screenshots of the e-mails below. I can forward the e-mail if necessary. This should be included as a note in exp 6 rules, and as a possibility in the order of play: If the conditions are met, we may: - Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne only
- Move the count only
- Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and then move the count
633
« on: January 27, 2021, 02:51:21 AM »
I did just get my prize, thanks a lot Meepledrone, I didn't expect such a prize ! But I'm gonna keep it secret, let's participate in next year's quizz, and maybe you'll get your prize Everyone, let's practice and read WICA as bedtime reading to be prepared for next year  Oh, and +1 merit for Meepledrone for the amazing work for that quizz, it was really fun !
634
« on: January 27, 2021, 01:44:55 AM »
Theoretically, that may be right, but in reality it will never happen. I rarely have two or more messages in one turn. And to get them draw after draw, I don't believe it will ever happen.
Did you try to focus your strategy on messages, when playing a megacarcassonne with a copy of every existing expansions? This makes it not so hard to achieve And I didn't even mention the fact that with every message action, there is a chance to repeat it. That makes even more opportunities to draw a message than the 16-20 I mentioned earlier. With a good management of scoring figures, and a strategy focused on messages for every optional scorings (bathhouse, captured meeple buyback, abbot, message action versus 2 points, moving fairy to completed feature's meeple or not...), it is not so difficult to get a lot of messages. At least that's what I experienced Of course, that's a twist of the game and that's why I use CI message rule when playing a megacarcassonne.
635
« on: January 27, 2021, 12:58:44 AM »
But farmers notnneed to be protected, right? None of revolt are against farmers because "farmers" are revolvers, right?
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
He does not need, as long as he can only be a farmer. But with La Porxada or Catapult, a farmer could be exchanged with a meeple on a city, road or monastery... House rule: If a farmer is exchanged with a meeple on a feature (with la Porxada or Catapult), he is automatically protected as he was a farmer  )
636
« on: January 27, 2021, 12:18:29 AM »
And that's why I keep the CI rule that we draw messages only at the end of your turn instead of after every scoring rounds... It prevents to overuse the messages...
637
« on: January 27, 2021, 12:17:17 AM »
I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013) This is evil 
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
- original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...
That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!
I know that, but as mentioned, I did already have 2 draws of that message, while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns). There are 4 opportunities to draw messages in a single turn (even 5 if you draw a WoF, peasant revolt or windrose tile) if combining many expansions, and many ways to chose how many points you get (captured meeple buyback, abbot removal, bathhouse buyback, meeple protection...). That means: - initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )4-5 opportunities to draw a message
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
- original tile's builder turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message, at that point, there is a chance you got at least seven messages, as you had 16 to 20 opportunities to draw them(with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
Of course this require to focus your strategy on messages, but it may be worth it, as getting additional turns is a great opportunity !
638
« on: January 26, 2021, 01:47:16 PM »
Thanks for those clarifications
My pleasure!
One question, if we draw 3 tiles and none of them can be placed, we discard them WITHOUT performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action? We then draw a single new tile and, if it can not be placed, we also discard it without performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action ?
JPutt927's answer surprised me, since I was considering this option would be valid, since it is allowed when you draw just one tile. However, if you only can choose tiles you can place. It seems this cannot be an option anymore. You have to pick a tile you can place or draw a new one tile at a time until you can place it.
This means that having a fortune teller, no matter the situation, makes it impossible to perform WoF or Peasant revolt actions from tiles that can not be placed?
It seems so. In my last reply, I insisted on the two aspects that made me raise an eyebrow:
- As per the clarifications you cannot invoke any actions triggers by tiles you cannot place (Wheel Of Fortune events and peasant revolts)
- If none of your tiles cannot be placed, you don't have an option to place a tile in your supply (abbey tile, German castle, halfling)
I'll keep you posted if he adds any comments about these issues.
I'm gonna keep the rule that if at least one of the tile is possible to place, you have to chose it (that clarification is totally ok for me), but if none of the tiles can be placed, you still have to chose one, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Seems more consistent with the rules, easy to understand and apply... It seems logical when at least one of the tiles can be placed, we have to chose this one, that's fine.
I like those clarifications, only the one about when none of the tiles doesn't satisfy me. It seemed more logical to me that in this situation, you still pick a tile, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Discarding the tiles before performing step 1a and 1b seems odd...
Technically you are not discarding any tiles yet. You should be putting them aside until you draw one you can place. Discarding and shuffling them and drawing them again would be a waste of time.
The issue would be what happens if these new draws take place and the tile you finally manage to place (after, let's say 5 draws) grants you a double turn. At this point I imagine two options:
1) You just discard those 4 tiles in your hand and draw 3 new tiles for the second part of your double turn as if you had placed a German castle or a halfling in the first part of your turn. You shouldn't be deciding which tiles to keep or discard from the total batch you drew.
2) Prior to each extra draw you put aside one of your tiles in your hand. These tiles put aside will be discarded when you finally draw and place a valid tile.
I think option 2) is simpler and very straight forward.
Any thoughts?
If I agreed with the rule that we do not play an unplacable tile even if none of them may be placed (yes, I'm still in revolt mood  ), then I'd agree with option 2
639
« on: January 26, 2021, 01:32:25 PM »
Thanks for the time you spend to clarify those rules 
640
« on: January 26, 2021, 01:28:22 PM »
Also, in the order of play, the last message round is directly after the catapult, not at the end of step 4a, after the bazar action? So points gained by the active player during an auction are not part of a round of scoring?
641
« on: January 26, 2021, 01:12:37 PM »
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
Case 1. Since your messenger moved forward with the last scoring, you will receive a message. Previous movements in the same round of scoring are irrelelvant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.
Case 2. Since your messenger moved bacwards with the last scoring, you will not receive a message. Previous movements n the same round of scoring are irrelevant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.
Bear in mind that the rules normally consider one scoring per round of scoring... The addition of several expansions allowed in one round os scoring several scoring events... But in any case, there is no memory effect between scoring events or rounds of scoring.
So you may decide to use one of your scoring figures to target dark spaces on the scoreboard and use the other to score those unwanted possitive or negative points... Anything goes in this case.
Thanks for the confirmation. I think the fact that we consider only the last movement should be mentioned in the order of play: "If playing with Mini #2 - Messages (Dispatches), the player scoring points chooses which scoring figure to move each time points are awarded. When you see MESSAGES (#ROUND), after scoring is completed for a given round of scoring, if one of your scoring figures has just landed on a dark space of the scoreboard and his last movement was forward (positive points and not negative, previous movements doesn't matter), you may draw a Message tile if there were no other players' scoring figures on it (ZMG rules only). The (#ROUND) identifier indicates the round of scoring within a turn sequence. Only one Message tile can be drawn per round or scoring (even if both scoring figures ended up on dark spaces the same round). Note that resolving a Message tile could also trigger the drawing of another Message tile." And in the message's page: "In order to trigger a Message, the landing on a dark space will take into consideration the last movement of a scoring figure during a round of scoring. That last movement has to be forward (including stolen points or payments received), not backward (due to payments), previous movements doesn't matter.any scoring moving forward a scoring figure on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received). No backwards movements of scoring figures landing on a dark space (due to payments) will be considered." One more suggestion: I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before: If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013) This is evil When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence: - initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
- original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible... Anyway, this means the message turn is a complete turn and it does also allow a second captured meeple buyback, fairy 1 point, plague spread and plague flight? This should be added to footnote 5 of the messages rules, as Carcassonne93 suggested https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#cs-comment-20676
642
« on: January 26, 2021, 07:57:00 AM »
Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?
The rule state: You can only draw one message from a round of scoring. Even if both your meeple and your messenger land on dark spaces during one turn (by scoring two features), you will still only draw one message tile.
643
« on: January 26, 2021, 01:25:22 AM »
Thanks for those clarifications One question, if we draw 3 tiles and none of them can be placed, we discard them WITHOUT performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action? We then draw a single new tile and, if it can not be placed, we also discard it without performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action ? This means that having a fortune teller, no matter the situation, makes it impossible to perform WoF or Peasant revolt actions from tiles that can not be placed? It seems logical when at least one of the tiles can be placed, we have to chose this one, that's fine. I like those clarifications, only the one about when none of the tiles doesn't satisfy me. It seemed more logical to me that in this situation, you still pick a tile, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Discarding the tiles before performing step 1a and 1b seems odd...
644
« on: January 26, 2021, 12:25:02 AM »
This is important to say, that both meeples on scoring board has to move forward to get message in "iv" and scoring of feature is solving separatelly, so player has multiple opportunities to get a lot of messages ;-)
They both have to move forward? If only one moves forward and ends on a dark space, there's no message? I'm pretty sure only one figure has to move forward to get a message (assuming the figure that moved forward ended on a dark space)... Rule says: If, during your turn (and only during your turn), your scoring meeple or your messenger moves to and stops on one of the dark spaces (0, 5, 10, 15, etc.) [1], immediately draw and resolve one message. Or, not and For sure there's plenty opportunities to get messages. I could even play 4 turns once (one builder turn, and two message turns), due to drawing every message tiles twice during my turns... But if you look at the order of play, during step 3, the message action is only in Step 3C: Resolve the Tile Scoring, so it is NOT repeated after each feature scoring (step 3b), only at the end of step 3c ! And still, my question: Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
645
« on: January 25, 2021, 11:42:54 PM »
If my knowledge of rules is:
You can get message only when you:
1. It's your turn
2. You move forward on scoring board
3. Only on accasional situations, which are:
i) when get fairy bonus on beginning turn
ii) resolve draw tile bonuses (peasant revolt, wheel of fortune)
iii) placed tile (wind of roses)
iv) resolve all actions in place wood phase I including placing phantom (bathhouse ransom, returning of abbot, acrobat pyramids, peasant revolts protection, peasant revolt itself, guided shephards sheeps, sold fruits
Yes, that's after each round of scoring (add also after every scoring in step 3 have been done, and at the end of step 4). But the question is for when, during a single round of scoring (during move the wood in the examples I mentioned), I moved both forward and backward... According to Meepledrone, during a round of scoring: In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.
And so my remaining question is: Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
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