Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Paul on June 09, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
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Reading all the rules for River II in zie CAR v7.0 it is still unclear just how it works under Preparations.
It says: The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...
The fork part,
1. Does a follower be allowed by 'the youngest player' to be placed on it
2. Or spring and fork tiles are placed and then players takes turn drawing and placing a river tile followed by optional follower to be placed on it.
It's quite confusing. We play option 2. above but still would like some clarification.
:meeple:
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It sounds to me like Option 1 is correct and that the youngest player can place a farmer on the fork tile. Otherwise, why specify that the youngest player plays the fork tile - why not just have the first two tiles placed and then start the game with the youngest player playing the third tile?
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It sounds to me like Option 1 is correct and that the youngest player can place a farmer on the fork tile. Otherwise, why specify that the youngest player plays the fork tile - why not just have the first two tiles placed and then start the game with the youngest player playing the third tile?
But that's the thing. It does not specify the youngest player is allowed to place a farmer. If someone has never played the game before, this would be even more confusing.
Then again, the android exozet game you can place a farmer on the fork which makes, just as you said, option 1 correct and we will vote on this next time we play at my house.
Provided we actually play without a gazillion expansions. ;D
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Then again, the android exozet game you can place a farmer on the fork which makes, just as you said, option 1 correct and we will vote on this next time we play at my house.
JCoisterZone has the player that goes first place the fork, and it does allow a follower on the fork.
In other words, JCZ also goes by Option 1.
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This may be worth clarifying with HiG, or simply clarifying in the CAR that placing the fork tile has the full effect of a regular turn - all options of a regular turn are available to the player.
(blue dog)
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/11/ne3u2u2a.jpg)
Also Option 1 in Carcassonne iOS.
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The German rule says:
Each player is allowed to place a figure (for example: follower as a farmer) on the just placed river tile, if the player like to do this. The figures can't be placed directly on the river.
The youngest player is one of the players... - that means: opinion 1.
Maroon - my own words
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In the rules there is nothing that explicitly prohibits place the former, for me option 1.
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Interesting..
We just mix the fork in with the rest of the river tiles, and play it whenever it comes up.
So, nyah. :)
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Interesting..
We just mix the fork in with the rest of the river tiles, and play it whenever it comes up.
So, nyah. :)
That is what we do too. We actually play with both rivers and include two forks in the mix so they come up at random.
But as for the original rules question - I think a parenthetical note of clarification would be good to eliminate the question for any newbies reading the CAR.
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Interesting..
We just mix the fork in with the rest of the river tiles, and play it whenever it comes up.
So, nyah. :)
We do the same thing. Technically it's a house rule, but when I think about it literally, river's don't fork near springs (in fact, they usually don't fork at all, they combine). I rather hope a third River expansion some day adds actual rules to the river for follower placement, and also adds another fork. I know that there are numerous fan expansions out there regarding the river, but it's not the same.
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The third paragraph in the Preparation section of the CAR states:
As in the normal game, every player may deploy a follower as they wish. No follower can be deployed to the river itself.
Thus, the person who plays the fork can also play a follower.
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I appreciate all the answers, albeit quite unanimous. ^-^
However, think we lost track of why there was a confusion in the first place.
As my original post shows, the rule text itself from CAR is not that very clear on this matter.
Even if there are annotations and clarifications elsewhere in the document, it should be obvious right there where I read it the first time, and where most of us will go when need an answer to this question: The River II fork placement section.
It could be as simple as replacing this:
The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...
with this:
The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork and then may place a farm on it. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...
:meeple:
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I appreciate all the answers, albeit quite unanimous. ^-^
However, think we lost track of why there was a confusion in the first place.
As my original post shows, the rule text itself from CAR is not that very clear on this matter.
Even if there are annotations and clarifications elsewhere in the document, it should be obvious right there where I read it the first time, and where most of us will go when need an answer to this question: The River II fork placement section.
It could be as simple as replacing this:
The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...
with this:
The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork and then may place a farm on it. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...
:meeple:
At this level of granularity, any changes in word order that are made basically come down to personal preference. Depending on how your mind works, one order of explanation may be more or less confusing than another. While you would obviously prefer the order that you describe, others might see the current way as just right, as it first goes through the approach to tile placement, then talks about follower placement, then talks about scoring bonuses (the pig herd). Since I cannot possibly make everyone happy, I have stuck with the order from the original rules.
We also run into the question of how much clarification is enough, and how much is too much? The assumption is that someone reading the rules to an expansion knows the rules of the basic game. Those rules include the option to place a follower after placing a tile. Since there is no specific prohibition mentioned here, I see no reason to believe that it would be any other way in this specific case. Should I add the part about the option of placing a follower to every sentence in the CAR that mentions tile placement? And if so, should I also remind readers that they can't place a follower on a claimed feature in each of those sentences?
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You certainly make a point.
However, all the other rules (incl. those in the CAR) that I've read, it's fairly obvious. Bear in mind that anyone that reads the rules should be able to understand them instantly.
How is "the youngest player places the fork. Then each player places..." is so obvious you can place a farm on it?
Understand that before CAR I didn't know it was possible to do it and after CAR I didn't think of it either, until I started getting an understanding of how Carcassonne game works.
Even then, hence this thread, I was confused.
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I'm going to side with Yellow on this issue and say it should at least have an FAQ entry or some form of clarification. If it needs to go to HiG to get an official statement, then so be it. The purpose of the CAR is to dissolve ambiguities in the rules, and this clearly is slightly ambiguous and, quite honestly, badly worded.
My problems with the rules, as written, is that it does not actually state a player may place a Follower on the just-placed tile. It implies that the players know the youngest player goes first, and then, from that, further implies that the youngest player therefore takes their turn even though they have no choice regarding which tile they must place (another aspect of this rule I dislike, though I know it is official). Perhaps it could be better worded with "The youngest player then begins their turn by placing the fork." This clarifies that the placement of the fork is the start of the game, with the youngest player beginning their turn. At this point, I would then agree that the optional placement of a Follower by the youngest player is implied.
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..If it needs to go to HiG to get an official statement, then so be it...
Sorry, but in the rule is a really clear answer. I won't like to ask HiG, because the answer is in the rule itself.
Here is the link to the German rule of HiG:
Graf, Koenig und Konsorten - page 4 (http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/fileadmin/data_archive/Regeln/CarcErw6GrafRegelWeb.pdf)
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Kettlefish, I just translated those sentences again and tried it in three different translators and I always come to the same conclusion: it is not clear enough. The translation reads: "The youngest player places the fork. Then, the players each pull a river tile and put it on the left or on the right of one of the river's branches.... Each player may place a Follower normally, if he wants."
I think the confusion here is how they establish that the "youngest player places the fork...then". This isn't the normal course of play in Carcassonne, where the start tile is followed by a random draw. With the River II, the start player does not get this random draw, and that is unusual. And so even though it does later say that each player can place a follower normally, it appears as if this rule only applies to the "then" statement, not the first statement regarding the youngest player. I honestly don't see how it hurts to put in a small clarification here just for those who may get confused.
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Jeder Spieler kann wie im normalen Spiel eine Figur setzen, wenn er will.
Each player may place a figure like in the regular game if he like.
"wie im normalen Spiel" - that means: use the rule of Carcassonne:
1. draw and place a tile (here one of the river tiles)
2. move wood (place a figure - example: follower)
3. score
"Jeder Spieler" - means: each player - the youngest player is also one of the players...
The youngest player draws the tile "fork" and places it and he may move wood (place a figure: example: follower as a farmer).
Only the player who places the tile with the volcano on it may not place a figure (follower) on it. He draws and places a second tile, may place a figure (follower) on it...
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The concept of the rule has different articles:
- preparation
(The original starting tile is not used...The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table)
- game play
1. draw and place a tile (The youngest player...)
2. move wood (Each player may place a figure...)
3. score (here with the river tiles - no feature will finished for scoring)
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Perhaps we can put in the CAR some headlines.
Then we don't change the rule itself, but we have more clear statements...
In the CAR 7.02 (see page 60) is only the headline: Preparation
And the headline for "game play" is missing...
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I have to admit that I still don't see the confusion in the rules. That doesn't mean it's not confusing to some people, just that I myself can't come up with a way to interpret this set of rules in more than one way. Depending on your precise translation, there is a sentence that says that each player can place a follower as normal. The youngest player is, by definition, a player, so this sentence applies to that person. Placing a follower as normal means to use the standard rules of the game -- the follower is placed after placing a tile. You can argue about whether or not you like the order of the sentences, but the words are all there.
That said, I have tweaked the wording of the follower placement sentence to make it a little more clear, and I have added a footnote to the sentence about the fork placement to direct readers' attention to the fact that each player can place a follower after he or she places a river tile. I also like kettlefish's point that this whole section is missing a few headings, so I will add those as well.
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I can see how this might be confusing to some people. I also see what kettlefish sees, that the rules contain the answer already. The CAR is a translation of the German rules; changing the text of the rules for "clarity" is part of the reason why the "official" English translations end up being different from the original German. A footnote is the best solution, which obervet has done.