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Carc Central Community => Strategy Guide => Topic started by: kothmann on September 13, 2021, 04:18:53 PM

Title: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: kothmann on September 13, 2021, 04:18:53 PM
See the series introduction here (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5461.0).

<--Last Week (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5462.0)    Next Week --> (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5476.0)

Game Condition: base game only with standard rules.

Players: Black, Gray, Red, Yellow (order of play as listed, alphabetical by color name).

Score: B=2, G=9, R=7, Y=8

Summary of Previous Moves:
1. B[ 0;-1]  2. G[ 0;+1]  3. R[ 1; 0]  4. Y[ 2; 0]  5. B[ 2; 1] (B scores 2 points)
6. G[ 1; -1] 7. R[ 2;-1] (R scores 3 points)  8. Y[ 3;-1] (Y scores 4 points)
9. B[-1; -1] 10. G[2; -2] 11. R[4; -1] (R scores 4 points)
12. Y[-2; 0] (Y scores 4 points) 13. B[ 0;-2] 14. G[ 1; -2] (G scores 9 points)
15. R[-2; 0]

Current Decision (photo below):
Yellow has now drawn the FFCC tile.
Where should they place the tile?
Should they place a meeple and if so, where?
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1G5TTiP8xdglh9ztg4qlmNiGPgVh_wnYl)

Option A (photo below)
[-1; 1], FFCC, meeple as knight in the west city segment.  Yellow scores 4 points.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1dwBTijIIw9bNCg9xQA4rS6su6ilf_fv9)

Option B (photo below)
[ 3; 0], CCFF, meeple as farmer.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1E8_J8zzKcndUZTDE1VWPkaupMMU0TwxE)

Option C (photo below)
[ 0; 2], CCFF, meeple as knight in east city segment.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1oXVhZVEVf1gmOTY4PttDjaAXAI4q1vy8)

Option D (photo below)
[ 0; 2], CFFC, meeple as knight in north city segment.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1rXoreYYH5JDTTH26N3-pEX4dZG7HE6KQ)

Option E (none of the above)
Please describe a better play in your reply.
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Allograft on September 13, 2021, 04:27:03 PM
Are expansions included, or just base game? If Bridges is included, I would castle the small city in the southwest corner, completing the cloister for black and providing the same 9 points for yellow. -  :pink-meeple:
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: kothmann on September 13, 2021, 04:33:03 PM
Good question, edited to say "base game only standard rules."

But I don't think you can score a castle on the same turn that you create it--see the first sentence here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#3._Scoring_a_castle
Quote
you score points when a neighboring feature is completed in a later turn
(underline added)
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Allograft on September 13, 2021, 04:43:04 PM
Wow. Mind blown. -  :pink-meeple:
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Allograft on September 13, 2021, 04:45:22 PM
Then given the revised rules, as much as I like B, I think I would go with A at an early point in the game. -  :pink-meeple:
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 14, 2021, 12:44:36 AM
This week quiz is more tactical like first one. I like it.
Due to score of meeples not coresponds situation on board:
Black has 2 points, but there are non finished 2 tiles road (for example).
It will be good to tell, how many tiles are in stack (deck).
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: unclewill on September 14, 2021, 01:36:17 AM
Nice!

Presumably with 17 tiles showing there are 55 left so we are almost a quarter of the way through the deck. With that in mind, I would choose between A (safe 4, set for another open city) and B.

I’d probably go with B as there is a lot of city potential and it doesn’t feel too early to commit a farmer. I expect that if I don’t, with that new tile in and three other players, there will be a farmer in that central field before my next turn.

Both Red and Black are interested in completing that road at (-2,-1) and if it is done using a RRFF then the field ties around to the north of the map too.

Yes, Option B. Fortune favours the brave.
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Ker42 on September 14, 2021, 07:22:31 AM
Well stated, unclewill.  If you don't grab that field, somebody else will and soon.  I vote B as well.
Good question, kothmann!  By the way, what would you do?  The moderator can voice his opinion too, right?
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: kothmann on September 14, 2021, 09:47:57 AM
...Due to score of meeples not coresponds situation on board:
Black has 2 points, but there are non finished 2 tiles road (for example).
My intention was that on the 5th turn, Black placed the RRRR tile at [ 2; 1] and scored two points for the completed road on the south edge.  That was the clear favorite play in the Week 01 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5462.0) poll.  I did experiment with the sequence of turns quite a bit, though, before settling on what you see here, so there is always the possibility that I transcribed something wrong or grabbed the wrong photo from my crazy iPhone camera roll.  So, thanks for keeping a sharp eye on things!

Quote
It will be good to tell, how many tiles are in stack (deck).
Good idea.  I'll try to remember to add that next week!

...By the way, what would you do?  The moderator can voice his opinion too, right?
"Moderator" will voice his opinion in a couple of days to bump the poll in the hope of getting more responses... >:D
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: unclewill on September 14, 2021, 09:52:08 AM
My intention was that on the 5th turn, Black placed the RRRR tile at [ 2; 1] and scored two points for the completed road on the south edge.  That was the clear favorite play in the Week 01 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5462.0) poll. 

We are playing against the Carcassonne Collective. I like it!
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 14, 2021, 10:09:20 AM
Well. In that case, there are too many cocks in one yard.
So Option B is nice start for Field battle on end of the game. Currently has ľ finished cities = 6 points, but preparation for next 3 so possible 15 points on end of the game.
Options A is also nice, because after placement of tile, yellow player is on same situation like before placement, plus 4 points.
Option C/D is fine. But benefit is small. Option D allow to preparation of block finishing of large city on north. but there are 4 players. So not big deal. Option C can be preparation to invide into city, but with big effort and needs big luck to finish it. But it allows to add tile on top right road by black and block all players meeples.
I choose B
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 14, 2021, 02:36:14 PM
@kothmann I have to be blind :(
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Allograft on September 14, 2021, 03:17:41 PM
@kothmann I have to be blind :(

?
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: kothmann on September 14, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
I think this is referring back to the question about how many points Black scored.

All good.  I really do appreciate that you’re looking it over.
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Guy on September 14, 2021, 11:35:41 PM
B. It's never too early to throw a farmer in the mix and it looks like it could be a big one!
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 15, 2021, 12:10:12 AM
@kothmann I have to be blind :(

?
There is road of two tiles!
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: kothmann on September 15, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
B. It's never too early to throw a farmer in the mix and it looks like it could be a big one!
It looks like this choice is winning at the moment.  Interesting! 

I had originally planned a different scenario for this week--I was going to have Black draw the FFCC tile on turn 9 with one option being to place it at [-1;-1] with a farmer, like this:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1CXgXfDBWWkVlMDgEY3aQS7--HGZZiDL9)
I'm wondering how many folks who chose B would also say that this would be the best play for black on turn 9?
Other options for Black would be to put the meeple in the city on the south edge of the tile at [-1;-1], or to put the tile at [ 4;-1] with a meeple in the city cap on the west edge to score a quick 4 points.

I decided not to post this because I thought everyone would think it was too early for the farmer.  :)

Was I mistaken?   Grateful for any thoughts... :-\
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 15, 2021, 12:59:16 PM
Well. It need to check how many players are in game and how many tiles is in deck.

So 4 players means 71/4 of tiles per player which is 18 for first three players and 17 for last one.
So there is also need to calculate this that invasion to farm can be difficult and also impossible in some scenarious.

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: kothmann on September 16, 2021, 07:25:52 AM
I voted for A.  Here are my thoughts about the various options.

Option A: This one is the most obvious good one: you score points, get a meeple back, and place a meeple, all of which are good.  The "get a meeple back" value is low, because you have only 1 meeple in play in a 4-player game, so meeples aren't critical.  Downside is that the possible field connection from a tile at [-2;-1] will make a very valuable farm that could be grabbed by an opponent.

Option B: This is a close second for me.  As many others have argued, after placing this tile, the field is getting big.  As @Bumsakalaka points out, the field is also not super easy to invade, because of the road across the bottom.  But an opponent could glom on with a tile at [4;-2] having a road on the west edge, ensuring connection with any tile at [3;-2], or by playing at [-3;0] and then completing the loop at [-2;-1].  Also, at the moment the tile is placed, there are only 2 completed cities and ALL of the CCCx tiles are still out, so the city caps that we hope will be completed are not a sure thing.

Option D: I think this has real merit.  I actually like getting another meeple on the board, in a position that would be allow placement of the CCCC tile reasonably early in the game.  Of course it also opens the possibility of trapping Gray and Red with any FFxx tile.  In a 3-player game, I would probably choose this as my first choice, because the trap has a higher value if there is no untrapped opponent.

Option C: Similar idea to D, but I always feel like going for a glom that requires 2 tiles in an already crowded area of the landscape ends up backfiring with my meeple getting trapped or stuck for a long time.

I found the choices and discussion to be very interesting and really enjoyed the nearly even split between A and B.  The fact that so many chose B and no one chose C nor D reflects concrete realization of two of @danisthirsy's general tips for 4-player games (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1060.0) (a great read, by the way):
Quote
2) "The early farmer wins the field"
...
5) "The questionable importance of blocking"

Thanks everyone for voting and commenting.

Next week will be a further continuation of this game...

Again, please message me with photos from your own games or just ideas of interesting ideas for problems...
Title: Re: Tactical Tuesday -- Week 02
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 29, 2021, 03:23:31 AM
For those, who want to check this situation also online. Here is file for new version of JCloisterZone 5.7.101, which finaly support also online game. You can download it from https://www.github.com/farin/JCloisterZone-Client/releases (https://www.github.com/farin/JCloisterZone-Client/releases)

Save file is ziped, due to restriction on forum, so need, unzip and load game.

File will be updated to include tiles order used in next weeks round. Currently include tiles order until Week 04.

Enjoy.