The Ferries - Question

[rfielder]

Things I am not clear about the Ferries mini.

If I place a tile with a lake, and place a follower on one of the roads, I must place a ferry.  That is clear.

#1 - if I place a tile with a lake and choose not to place a follower, can I still place a ferry?

#2 - If I place a follower on another tile with a road that connects to the tile with a lake, can I then place a ferry on the tile with a lake?  Or is that tile forever ferryless (ferrieless?  ferrybaren?) and all roads end at the lake?

Thanks!

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=694.0

[Marcellus]

You MUST always place a ferry when you draw a tile with a lake, even if you don't place a follower on it.

[Whaleyland]

#1 - if I place a tile with a lake and choose not to place a follower, can I still place a ferry?

I believe placing the Ferry is obligatory, even though placing a Robber is not. Otherwise there would be other complications, such as the one you mention afterwards:

#2 - If I place a follower on another tile with a road that connects to the tile with a lake, can I then place a ferry on the tile with a lake?  Or is that tile forever ferryless (ferrieless?  ferrybaren?) and all roads end at the lake?

This is one of the main reasons why the Ferry has to be placed initially. But I'd say even if it wasn't placed, it should be placed at the first opportunity.

As a fun aside, when I played this for the first time last year, the 4-road lake tile was one of the first on the board. I'm pretty sure that every combination of roads was scored using that Ferry. The thing just kept moving. We'd score side A to B, then B to D, then D to A, then C to B. It was quite crazy and I definitely like the mechanics of the Ferry.

[Carcking]

...It was quite crazy and I definitely like the mechanics of the Ferry.

We very much enjoy the Ferries because of this kind of game play. It draws welcome attention to roads. 

[rfielder]

You MUST always place a ferry when you draw a tile with a lake, even if you don't place a follower on it.

The rules (copies from CAR 6.4) state:
"If he chooses to place a follower on a road, he or she must place the follower on one of the three or four road segments. Then, the active player must take a ferry from the stock and link two of the road segments on the tile."
To me, this is somewhat misleading.  The structure of the paragraph could lead to the interpretation that the "must take a ferry" is dependent on the "If he chooses to place a follower".

In other words, no follower, no ferry.  When we first read the rules, we interpreted it as only placing a ferry when a follower was placed.

I agree, always placing a ferry regardless of placing a follower makes sense, and makes sense to the game play. 

I would suggest that a footnote to clarify this be added to the next edition of the CAR.

[Carcking]

It's two sentences which provide separate instructions. First comes the choice. Then comes the obligation.

If it read something like:

"If he chooses to place a follower on a road, he or she must place the follower on one of the three or four road segments, then must take a ferry from the stock and link two of the road segments on the tile."

I would agree that would make it clear that the ferry is only required with the placing of a follower. But as written I believe it is clear that it's an obligation. And it's the only way players can move the ferry in the future. It's understood that it's in place already.

[rfielder]

Who's your favorite? Knight, Thief, Farmer or Monk?

Personally, I prefer the Warrior.

If it read something like:

I would agree with you, if it were not for the fact that both my partner and I misinterpreted this, in the same way, reading the rules separately.  English is my first language, and has been my partner's language since she was very young.

Which may or may not say more about us than about the rules, but....    I figure if we can misinterpret, than so could others.

[Fritz_Spinne]

In the German rules it is:

Draw and place a seatile.
The player may place a follower, if he places him on a street, he has to choose one of the three or four street sections.
Afterwards the active player has to take a ferry and connect two street sections.

There's an "afterwards" in german too ("danach"), but I think, most of german readers will take a ferry even if they don't place a follower.

I looked over the english rules, too:

The old RGG-rule says: draw and place ... Then the player may place a follower ... Then he must place a ferry.
action order: 3. place ferry (on lake tile) if he placed a follower on the road
4. modify ferries (if he placed a follower on a road with placed ferry)

New ZMG-rule: player can place a follower ... Then, this player takes a ferry ...
turn sequence: 3. Set a ferry (if the placed tile has a lake)
4. Move the ferry (if the placed tile continued a road with a ferry)

I think the correct rules are the combination of the description of RGG and the turn sequenze of ZMG.
 

[Scott]

There seems to be an agreement in the rules that you only place a ferry when you place a thief on the road. If no thief is placed initially, placing one later obligates placement of the ferry, so there should be no problem. Doesn't hurt to place a ferry immediately though.

[Fritz_Spinne]

There seems to be an agreement in the rules that you only place a ferry when you place a thief on the road. If no thief is placed initially, placing one later obligates placement of the ferry, so there should be no problem. Doesn't hurt to place a ferry immediately though.

I don't think so, I think you always must place a ferry.

[Scott]

Ok, then we a question for HiG. I will send a message to Kettlefish on the German forums.

[Paul]

I've notioned for always placing a ferry, until I reread the Swedish rules. Here follows a pretty accurate translation:

The order when a ferries tile is placed is as follows:
1. Place the ferries tile.
2. Place a follower (if the player chooses to).
3. Place a ferry (on the ferries tile) if a follower was placed on the road.
4. Move ferries (if he placed a follower on a road with an already placed ferry).
5. Score points (if possible).

 

[Carcking]

A Ferry must be placed when the Lake tile is placed. Otherwise, no player can earn the right to move the Ferry by extending the road that it is on - there is no road that the Ferry is on.

Further, if the Ferry is not placed immediately then all the roads are terminated at the tile - perhaps causing some to score and followers to be removed.

Any translation that makes the placement of the Ferry optional when the Lake tile is placed must be in error.

[Fritz_Spinne]

A Ferry must be placed when the Lake tile is placed. Otherwise, no player can earn the right to move the Ferry by extending the road that it is on - there is no road that the Ferry is on.

Further, if the Ferry is not placed immediately then all the roads are terminated at the tile - perhaps causing some to score and followers to be removed.

Any translation that makes the placement of the Ferry optional when the Lake tile is placed must be in error.

  , but without a statement of HiG other players will not be convinced.

[Paul]

A Ferry must be placed when the Lake tile is placed. Otherwise, no player can earn the right to move the Ferry by extending the road that it is on - there is no road that the Ferry is on.

Further, if the Ferry is not placed immediately then all the roads are terminated at the tile - perhaps causing some to score and followers to be removed.

Any translation that makes the placement of the Ferry optional when the Lake tile is placed must be in error.

Well then. I did also read the CAR 6.4 and albeit it can be confusing to some, to me it also states there that the ferry is only placed if a follower is placed on a road segment of that tile.
  What makes it confusing is that the entire text is followed by one another and the error CAR 6.4 has in the numbered list of the turn order. (I.e. the first long description text says a ferry is placed only if a follower is placed but then in the numbered list it says another thing.)