Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: jungleboy on January 07, 2016, 01:07:34 PM
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After over a year of the new artwork, and with the Princess and the Dragon and Abbey and Mayor on the way, I think it's time to take stock of the community's feelings towards Carcassonne II. There is a general feeling that most people don't like it - but is that really true? Vote in the poll and let's find out!
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The only way they were able to get me in Version II is when they only had a basegame with new expansions.. but they are redoing it all over again..
In my opinion a bad mistake to backstab your community in tricking them to pay 200-300 euro all over again. (some even more when you really got everything..
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There is one option missing (and it is exactly my point of view):
I don't like Carcassonne II, but I will buy any future unique expansions with this artwork.
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I don't mind the new artwork when it comes to owning them.
What I don't like with the new artwork is how the tiles becomes repulsive to look at in photos.
Since I already had the base game, I bought the first two expansions. It's only 10 Euro per expansion so I don't mind.
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There is one option missing (and it is exactly my point of view):
I don't like Carcassonne II, but I will buy any future unique expansions with this artwork.
Added.
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There is one option missing (and it is exactly my point of view):
I don't like Carcassonne II, but I will buy any future unique expansions with this artwork.
Added.
I dont know if there is an option.. but i cant change my vote now. wasnt there a checkbox for it? (dont know:P)
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I dont know if there is an option.. but i cant change my vote now. wasnt there a checkbox for it? (dont know:P)
OK, I've reset the vote count with the new option included. So everyone who already voted should vote again. Cheers!
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I used this opinion:
I don't like Carcassonne II and I won't buy anything with this artwork.
But I have the 1st and 2nd expansion: the front graphics - I will put them away - then I have some more blanc tiles. I didn't buy these expansions. I only need the rule books for the clarification of rules.
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Good idea Jungleboy, I'm interested to see how the results stack up. I've placed my vote, but thought I'd give my two-penneth on the subject...
I really disliked the new style artwork when it was first launched, but I'm (afraid to say that I'm) gradually learning to tolerate it! I think that the turning point was when Piklach and I borrowed a copy at the UK meetup and quite liked the Abbot mini expansion and the lovely gardens. Granted, the tiles do look very detailed, but they seem too modern and the colours just seem wrong (esp those blue roofs). For the record, I will definitely not be buying any Carc 2.0 tiles - the main reasons are that (in my opinion) it just doesn't mix with the traditional artwork very well and now I have quite a number of the original expansions then I'm certainly not going to start buying it all again! I really hope that new tiles with artwork by Doris Matthäus continue to be released for many years to come.
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It's almost blasphemy, but sometimes I look at the Carcassonne tiles and box art and wonder if is starting to look dated.
I think Dorris Matthaus's artwork is beautiful, but compare the tiles from USnS and classic Carcassonne. Things have moved on and tastes have changed. Imagine playing Monopoly on a board from 1905, technology has allowed for better resolution and better quality printing, which ultimately allows for a more emersive experience.
I use Monopoly of an example of a game that has.... Unfortunately.... Stood the test of time. It has done so by subtly reinventing it's appearance; and less so than changing the rules.
People dont like change, but it is part of the course. Its a shame DM didnt rejig the artwork, for reasons that will remain unknown. This has been decided and clearly HiG are moving on. I think the new artwork is still appealing to younger people and hopefully it will stand the test of time. Rather than be disgruntled about compatibility, we should be pointing out faults in the artwork that make the game harder to play, the the hope these can be refined.
This is my biggest critisism of the new artwork. Some of the tile layouts are poor. Im on my phone now but tomorrow i will include some photos of tiles and comments how they could be subtly improved to aide players.
There are so many obscure and hard to find expansions now that a series reboot seems like a great way to allow new players to join the Carcassonne Party. I've been following CarcC's twitter account over Christmas and I have seen many many tweets of new players who are thrilled with their new Xmas game and hiw beautiful their landscapes are.
I also had a tweet from someone who mixes Carcassonne and Winter Edition together!
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There is one option missing (and it is exactly my point of view):
I don't like Carcassonne II, but I will buy any future unique expansions with this artwork.
On that note, there's also:
I don't like Carcassonne II, but I may buy a future unique expansion with this artwork.
Clearly I'm undecided on that one specific issue. Technically, I do have Spiel '14 and Spiel '15 tiles in the new art, but I have no intention to actually use either in my games (that's how stupidly completist I am).
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My opinion is already know, I'm a fan of the artwork and I own the base game. I own I&C in the original artwork, but I plan on maybe selling it and buying the new artwork (not a huge problem, as its cheaper then the original artwork). My only problem is how long it might take to get the originals re-printed in the new style, and the fan-expansions will likely continue to be in the old style.
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I selected "other" because my opinion is
"I'm ok with Carcassonne II, but I'm not happy with the way they have done things and continue to do things. I will not buy anything in the Carcassonne II series until it contains something substantially unique or different from from whats in other Carcassonne variants."
So my explanation is this. The artwork is neither here nor there, its an update but not an improvement for me. I would have liked better artwork yes, but this wouldn't have made me "buy into" the Version II series any more than I already do.
If at some point they release some new major expansions that are exclusive to Carcassonne II, I'd be happy to purchase them along with the base game, in the same way that I purchase every base game I can that is a variant of the original Carcassonne. So far Carcassonne II has brought nothing new to the table (the Abbots don't count for me).
Reboots in other game lines happen all the time, but when do it, its usually to fix something that was broken, or to take things a different direction. At the moment I haven't seen that happen with Carcassonne II and I won't purchase anything until it does.
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Reboots in other game lines happen all the time, but when do it, its usually to fix something that was broken, or to take things a different direction.
That's a good thing to note, although it's not entirely true. What seems to more often be the case is that the new version is used specifically to market a new expansion. Pandemic, for example, released a new version to critical righteous indignation, only to since release two large expansions for it (in addition to the original On the Brink expansion). The new art was utterly unnecessary for this change. Similarly, every version of Catan has been accompanied with a new expansion exclusive to that new artwork (and future artwork changes):
1st edition: Settlers of Catan
2nd edition: Settlers + Seafarers
3rd edition: Settlers + Seafarers + Cities & Knights
4th edition: Settlers + Seafarers + Cities & Knights + Traders & Barbarians
5th edition: Settlers + Seafarers + Cities & Knights + Traders & Barbarians + Explorers & Pirates
None of these were necessary, in contrast to the conversion of the Catan Card Game into Rivals for Catan, which introduced cleaned up mechanics and a number of fixes in addition to a new method of expansions and a new overall theme.
Carcassonne II thus far has introduced nothing new to the game in respect to expansions even to justify the change (I agree, Abbot doesn't count). In fact, it had just released Hills & Sheep in the old style, directly undermining their new art direction. The rules are simplified but nothing is really clarified in any way that was necessary. This art change was just to rebrand the product, plain and simple. But remaking the tiles was never necessary. Box artwork: fine. But tile artwork: utterly unnecessary.
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I voted that I don’t mind either way. On the rare occasions that my wife and I are able to sit down to play Carcassonne I’ll usually grab whichever box first falls out of my wardrobe regardless of whether it’s classic Carc or Carc 2.0. Apart from the Abbots (which we don’t use), the gameplay is exactly the same and that’s what I’m most interested in/ addicted to.
With the utmost respect to everyone here, my opinion regarding this whole debate is that some people see Carc 2.0 as a threat to classic Carc. But whilst classic Carc may be under threat, it isn’t under threat from Carc 2.0, it’s under threat from old age and the fact that the classic artwork looks dated. Beautiful, granted. But dated nonetheless, compared to many other games at least.
This would still be a problem for classic Carc even if Carc 2.0 didn’t exist, but if the fact that Carc 2.0 does exist means that more people are likely to discover it and play it then I don’t really care what version of the artwork they’re using as long as they’re enjoying the game and keeping it alive. Surely it’s better having classic Carc co-exist with Carc 2.0 and there be some kind of future rather than nothing to look forward to at all?
And finally, if HiG do start publishing exclusive Carc 2.0 expansions, how long is it going to be before some of our very talented authors here have knocked up the same expansions in the classic artwork? I’m not 100% on the legality of this, but it’s certainly a possibility and if HiG want to salvage some respect from those of us who are still annoyed by their Carc 2.0 decision then hopefully they’ll see the sense in allowing this to happen.
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When I bought in 2006 the first BigBox - I looked at the back side of the Box and read the description - I liked the idea of the game mechanics - but mostly I become in love with the graphics from Doris Matthäus.
In the year 2006 there were also some spin-off games of Carcassonne already published (2001-2006) and all the spin-offs were in the shops. I looked at the Hunters&Gatherers - great graphics too - I bought this. There were also Mayflower - bad graphics - I didn't buy it. The New World - bad graphics - I didn't buy it. But all these games have wooden figures in the boxes - I like the wooden figures, but not always the graphics.
In 2011 the 10years jubilee edition - great grapics but the game was published with plastic figures - I didn't buy it because there were no wooden figures in it.
CCII - the graphics especially the city segments - dark brown and the blue roofs - in my opinion the worst choice for combination of colours - I didn't buy it and I wouldn't like to get this as a gift.
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Thanks to everyone for their votes and great comments so far - keep them coming! Although we've been discussing 2.0 forever, it's very interesting to take a step back in this thread and read everyone's particular thoughts on it.
I'm especially interested in the idea that some people love the game more for the gameplay (e.g. Dan) and others more for the artwork (e.g. kettlefish). In my opinion, Carc I is a brilliant combination of both of these two things, but if I had to choose one of these two camps I would go with the artwork as the most important aspect of the game for me (even though I feel a bit stupid for saying this even as I'm typing). I get annoyed by the different shades of field green in various expansions, so that shows you how important the artwork is for me. So I voted that I don't like 2.0 and won't buy anything in it. I guess we'll have to see if I stick to that if/when a unique expansion does come around, or if a good-value 2.0 big box comes out as kettlefish suggested in another thread. But for now I have no interest or desire in owning anything 2.0 (including the Spiel promo tiles).
Another interesting point that's come up in this thread is the idea that the Carc 1 artwork is outdated. Maybe it's because I don't really own any other games, but I don't share this view (nor understand it, to be honest). I only saw this artwork for the first time 3 years ago. I loved it then and I love it now and I can't see how I won't love it in another 10 years. Because it's a medieval theme and a tile-laying board game, I don't think it needs a 'modern' look. But again, this is just my opinion.
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I voted:
I don't like Carcassonne II and I won't buy anything with this artwork.
...and it is really clear for me. I foresee a mutiny of the nostalgics the day HiG will release a Carc II-only expansion. O:-)
For now, it does not bother me that much if they just re-release the existing stuff. Though I find it irritating that they still claim that the tiles are compatible because the back of the tiles is the same...
Note that I would very happily support a kickstarter campaign to print new expansions with the "old" artwork.
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Note that I would very happily support a kickstarter campaign to print new expansions with the "old" artwork.
I'd better bake "Carcassonne 3.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1409.0)" ;D, if it will be released someday.
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Note that I would very happily support a kickstarter campaign to print new expansions with the "old" artwork.
I'd better bake "Carcassonne 3.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1409.0)" ;D, if it will be released someday.
Yes, absolutely. HiG should hire this guy!
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perhaps we need an opinion poll if we like to have CC 3.0 and some expansions from this great graphics work.
I then will vote: I will buy the base game and all the expansions for CC 3.0...
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perhaps we need an opinion poll if we like to have CC 3.0 and some expansions from this great graphics work.
I then will vote: I will buy the base game and all the expansions for CC 3.0...
I think such poll needs only one option... :D
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perhaps we need an opinion poll if we like to have CC 3.0 and some expansions from this great graphics work.
I then will vote: I will buy the base game and all the expansions for CC 3.0...
I think such poll needs only one option... :D
Unfortunately, it's going to take another 15 years before they start thinking of updating the artwork, once again... :( So not really an option, as we speak... It's not like the baseball game where you're allowed two strikes while batting: they had one chance and they screwed up.
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Looks like we're getting another "the finger" poll result... :@
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It's not like the baseball game where you're allowed two strikes while batting: they had one chance and they screwed up.
Perhaps as far as we're concerned. Their criteria for success will be based on how much money it makes them...
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It's not like the baseball game where you're allowed two strikes while batting: they had one chance and they screwed up.
Perhaps as far as we're concerned. Their criteria for success will be based on how much money it makes them...
That's true... It's clearly a business decision.
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Note that I would very happily support a kickstarter campaign to print new expansions with the "old" artwork.
I'd kickstart that!
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I am not a completionist. I play mostly with my wife and she can only handle so many expansions.
So the confirmed move to 2.0 has led me to: decide on the handful of Carc 1.0 expansions that I think we'd like most; buy those while they're still affordable, and be content with those. To me, that's better than waiting YEARS to be able to (possibly) get reprints of some of my favorite expansions like Castles in Germany and (my wife's favorite) Hills & Sheep.
If new 1.0 expansions came out, I'd consider buying those. But I can't see myself buying 2.0 for more expansions. In the end, I'll be buying less Carcassonne than I would have had they stayed with 1.0.
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I believe that many people are leaving the head before her route. HiG has not yet made any statement ufficile, on wanting to abandon the old graphics. It could very well produce new expansions with both artwork.
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I find the new artwork and especially the blue roofs to be an affront to the retina and cerebral cortex at once. The landscape is just hard to look at.
Further, I am insulted when the publishers say the tiles are compatible if you just turn them all upside down. Sorry, but it's the fronts that people want to look at.
Further, I am insulted by the dumbing-down of the rules. I mean come on, Meeples? and playing without Farms because it's too hard? Good grief.
I won't be buying any 2.0 product, no matter what they come out with. (But I am keenly watchful for the 3.0 Kickstarter :) )
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Note that I would very happily support a kickstarter campaign to print new expansions with the "old" artwork.
I'd kickstart that!
Same here! That could be a cool way for HiG to potentially see if such a product would be worth the trouble.
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I neither like the new artwork, and I can't stand difference in design. Also I boycott the new artwork as a matter of principle, as I really can't understand how HiG can go the Catan way. However, for me it is the game that counts, therefore I'm also interested in new game mechanics. This is the reason why I might buy new CarcII expansions in new artwork. Still, I'm not sure about that yet.
Reboots in other game lines happen all the time, but when do it, its usually to fix something that was broken, or to take things a different direction. At the moment I haven't seen that happen with Carcassonne II and I won't purchase anything until it does.
Haha, that's not true. HiG want to erase the Catapult from the Carcassonne Universe with the new version! O0
And finally, if HiG do start publishing exclusive Carc 2.0 expansions, how long is it going to be before some of our very talented authors here have knocked up the same expansions in the classic artwork? I’m not 100% on the legality of this, but it’s certainly a possibility and if HiG want to salvage some respect from those of us who are still annoyed by their Carc 2.0 decision then hopefully they’ll see the sense in allowing this to happen.
I guess this shouldn't be any problem, since it also was no problem to publish all the expansions in the design of the Winter Download Edition on CarcF.
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I find the new artwork and especially the blue roofs to be an affront to the retina and cerebral cortex at once. The landscape is just hard to look at.
I know that many people really dislike the blue roofs, but personally I don't mind them. My main problems with the artwork are:
- the colour of the city interiors
- the colour of the fields
- the attempt to make corner roads and straight roads more exciting with twists etc, which just looks silly when a lot of them are placed together
- gardens
As I've said before, I think most of the individual tiles look OK by themselves - even good. I remember having a picture of one of them as the lock screen of my phone once. But when they are put together I think it just looks terrible because the two main colours are awful.
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Poll bump/update:
With 38 votes counted, nearly half (17/38, 45%) say they don't like Carcassonne II and won't buy anything in the new artwork. The rest of the answers are spread out fairly evenly across all the other options. It's quite fascinating to see the results and the different opinions people have.
And if you haven't voted yet, what are you waiting for? C:-)
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I am actually quite happy that there is now (I assume) a "hard limit" on Carcassonne V1 expansions. That means all I have to do is a) ignore the fact I don't have "The Cathars" (and will probably never pay the prices demanded for 4 tiles) and b) wait to find the two Russian tiles to be able to declare my collection complete.
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I am actually quite happy that there is now (I assume) a "hard limit" on Carcassonne V1 expansions. That means all I have to do is a) ignore the fact I don't have "The Cathars" (and will probably never pay the prices demanded for 4 tiles) and b) wait to find the two Russian tiles to be able to declare my collection complete.
What about buying Besiegers from Cundco? I've counted this as a compromise for my collection since they are essential the same (except for the amount of tiles avaliable).
I agree that the hard limit placement for the amount of expansions does make it seem like the collection can be finished, but then again I will miss (except for using fan-made variants) the opportunity to get my teeth stuck into something new and official
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Oh, I have besiegers from Cundco and also 'Cult Siege and Creativity' so having "The Cathars" is an uber-completionist 'nice to have'. Still, they'd be nice to have :)
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FYI, there's a whole (new!) thread for discussion of Besiegers etc and completionism (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2334.0).
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I don't mind it, the horse has already left the barn.
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I voted that I don't really like the artwork but I will buy any new expansions in the new artwork (along with a base set at that point).
While I'm not the biggest fan of the art I certainly enjoy the mechanics of the game enough to be interested in anything new that comes out. It's slowly been growing on me bit by bit so I'm sure I'll come round eventually.
I think my main issue initially is that I was relatively new to Carcassonne but also invested enough in the old art to feel like I had a collection started. I have now bought all the major expansions in the old art style and the majority of promos/minis that I would consider myself to have a pretty complete collection (by my standards) and so I'm happy to have that at least. This probably has a part in me not minding the new art so much anymore!
Also one thing I've noticed is the reaction to "comparability" based on the backs of each tile being the same and whilst I appreciate that from most people's perspectives the clashing art isn't good I'm grateful that they at least technically work together (with roads etc lining up). When pandemic got the makeover treatment they completely changed everything, even the backs of the cards, so you physically couldn't mix versions as you'd be able to tell what cards were from which version. At least whilst most of us wouldn't want mix styles, we have the option as it mechanically works.
Basically, I think whilst it's not the most ideal situation and not where I would have wanted the series to go I probably will cave as soon as anything new of significance is released!
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Well said Curt. I wonder if I'll *eventually* come around too. O0
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As a newcomer to Carcassonne (first game was May 2015) and utterly hooked from my first game, in all honesty it was the gameplay that got me, not the artwork.
Having said that, I got Big Box 5 for my birthday in July and have purchased the other expansions (except Tower and Catapult) - all in the old artwork and they are great to look at. I genuinely wouldn't want the new artwork. My wife and I spotted it for the first time in a shop in Looe, Cornwall and both thought it hideous!
A friend of mine has just bought v2.0 and I kind of pity him. 2.0 seems childish in its artwork design.
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@Curt194: +1 to this! Well done for summing up so many opinions that I share so succinctly. Definitely due a merit... :(y)
@Endecay: Welcome to the forums! Good work on getting hold of so many classic Carc expansions so quickly! :)
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@Curt194: +1 to this! Well done for summing up so many opinions that I share so succinctly. Definitely due a merit... :(y)
Maybe Curt could open a school of succinct writing and you could be his first student :)
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@Endecay: Welcome to the forums! Good work on getting hold of so many classic Carc expansions so quickly! :)
Thanks. I bought them all from German amazon at a fraction on the English cost. And my big box 5 is German too. Handy thing being able to get all the rules in English online. ;D
I've become such a nut that I have made myself a storage box from my old android tablet box...
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I've become such a nut that I have made myself a storage box from my old android tablet box...
Can you post a picture of it in this thread (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=495.0)?
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I don't mind it, the horse has already left the barn.
That's an interesting (and probably smart) way to look at it. I think it's obvious now that Carcassonne II is here to stay. So we can either accept this and move on, or keep 'fighting' against it.
Personally, I'm very happy with my existing Carcassonne I collection so I know I'll get many more years of enjoyment out of it even if I never add anything else to it. So I can accept that Carcassonne II is here to stay, but I don't see any reason to buy any of it because there's nothing new so far. And even when something new finally does come, I'm still not sure I would be compelled to buy it unless I thought it was a really fantastic expansion - and I'm not sure a really fantastic large expansion is possible anymore. Hills and Sheep was fairly well received, but for me Abbey and Mayor was the last really good one.
So I think I'll just keep playing blissfully with Carcassonne I and its many expansions, and ignore the existence of Carcassonne II.
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I am totaly okay with the new art style, though of course I would have changed it a little if I was involved in the design process.
Other users have said they thought the original tile style was looking "dated". I can totally see where they are coming from. The new tiles are more colourful. (There sure is a lot more blue turrets, maybe a bit too much). Also in the original version there were some tiles that confused new players by not lining up the walls correctly.
The new edition was made to appeal to new players. We still have plenty of original edition games out there to play.
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Thanks mPony, some great observations of the current world of Carcassonne.
I think I'm going to start calling it Carcassonne: Summer Edition.
This was a cartoon I did a few months back to highlight the loss of our beloved grey-meeple.
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/fun/CarcVersionsCompared.png)
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gosh I need to turn the contrast down on my monitor to not burn my retinas ;)
Thanks mPony, some great observations of the current world of Carcassonne.
I think I'm going to start calling it Carcassonne: Summer Edition.
This was a cartoon I did a few months back to highlight the loss of our beloved grey-meeple.
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/fun/CarcVersionsCompared.png)
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As a newcomer to Carcassonne (first game was May 2015) and utterly hooked from my first game, in all honesty it was the gameplay that got me, not the artwork.
Having said that, I got Big Box 5 for my birthday in July and have purchased the other expansions (except Tower and Catapult) - all in the old artwork and they are great to look at. I genuinely wouldn't want the new artwork. My wife and I spotted it for the first time in a shop in Looe, Cornwall and both thought it hideous!
A friend of mine has just bought v2.0 and I kind of pity him. 2.0 seems childish in its artwork design.
Same here except I bought my BB5 on Dec 31. All the expansions I want (all the biggies except Catapult plus a few minis) I now have - or are en route to me... At least I think all the ones I want...
For me - I prefer the old artwork. If there was an expansion I wanted in the new artwork, I'd probably cave & buy it - but it would be a much harder sell to myself...
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I promised to include an image with some of the design faults for Carcassonne:SE - In the image I talk about below, have a look at the cloister. The top of the spire goes almost to the very top and middle of the tile. This makes it look like the left hand and right hand sides of the tile are 2 separate farms - when they're not. Another example of poor design is the junction below the city cap on the CRRR tile. It is so close to the city, it is hard to tell at a distance what is going on, again the farm is encroached.
On another note: I've created a small comparison of the 3 most common types of colourblindness.
I'm by not an expert on the subject, and cannot pretend to be remotely knowledgeable on the subject. Approximately, 12% of the male population has some degree of colourblindness, I'd be interested what their opinions are on the Carcassonne:SE artwork.
There are tools which can be used to apply filters to images to 'mimic' the spectra, and allow 'normal sighted' people a chance to interpret how people with colourblindness would see tiles.
It's quite interesting to see how Carcassonne and Carcassonne:SE compare.
At the top is my original images and below 3 common filters applied.
Below: Deuteranopia (common) , Protanopia (Rare) & Tritanopia (Very Rare).
I recommend you download the rather large image (2.1MB) from here. (http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/fun/ColourBlindCompare.png)
It's interesting to see how Carcassonne renders with the deuteranopia & protanopia filters. It looks monotone. On the close up images here that looks helpful, it's just like playing in black and white. But when I looked at images of larger boards from BGG the whole board turns into a single colour wash. I could imagine young children becoming confused or bored with the layout.
When the filters are applied to Carcassonne:SE - the blue roofs actually help cities stand out. Roads are much sharper too. Not shown here, pennants looks amazing, they pop out. Having said that, road junctions still look a mess from a distance and cloister are not significantly different.
There are many different types and levels of colourblindness, and speaking as someone without colourblindness these filters can only give be a rough sense of what things would look like. Also static images are very different to motion.
I've applied a few more filters here if you're interested. (http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/fun/ColourBlindCarcassonneFilters.png)
I've been using an application called 'Color Oracle' for the 1st image and 'Coblis' for the 2nd image.
Any game designers/artists reading this should consider using these tools before completing project artwork.
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So I think I'll just keep playing blissfully with Carcassonne I and its many expansions, and ignore the existence of Carcassonne II.
+1 to this jb. My sentiments exactly. :(y)
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I promised to include an image with some of the design faults for Carcassonne:SE - In the image I talk about below, have a look at the cloister. The top of the spire goes almost to the very top and middle of the tile. This makes it look like the left hand and right hand sides of the tile are 2 separate farms - when they're not. Another example of poor design is the junction below the city cap on the CRRR tile. It is so close to the city, it is hard to tell at a distance what is going on, again the farm is encroached.
On another note: I've created a small comparison of the 3 most common types of colourblindness.
I'm by not an expert on the subject, and cannot pretend to be remotely knowledgeable on the subject. Approximately, 12% of the male population has some degree of colourblindness, I'd be interested what their opinions are on the Carcassonne:SE artwork.
There are tools which can be used to apply filters to images to 'mimic' the spectra, and allow 'normal sighted' people a chance to interpret how people with colourblindness would see tiles.
It's quite interesting to see how Carcassonne and Carcassonne:SE compare.
At the top is my original images and below 3 common filters applied.
Below: Deuteranopia (common) , Protanopia (Rare) & Tritanopia (Very Rare).
I recommend you download the rather large image (2.1MB) from here. (http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/fun/ColourBlindCompare.png)
It's interesting to see how Carcassonne renders with the deuteranopia & protanopia filters. It looks monotone. On the close up images here that looks helpful, it's just like playing in black and white. But when I looked at images of larger boards from BGG the whole board turns into a single colour wash. I could imagine young children becoming confused or bored with the layout.
When the filters are applied to Carcassonne:SE - the blue roofs actually help cities stand out. Roads are much sharper too. Not shown here, pennants looks amazing, they pop out. Having said that, road junctions still look a mess from a distance and cloister are not significantly different.
There are many different types and levels of colourblindness, and speaking as someone without colourblindness these filters can only give be a rough sense of what things would look like. Also static images are very different to motion.
I've applied a few more filters here if you're interested. (http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/fun/ColourBlindCarcassonneFilters.png)
I've been using an application called 'Color Oracle' for the 1st image and 'Coblis' for the 2nd image.
Any game designers/artists reading this should consider using these tools before completing project artwork.
I've just had great fun using these filters! I am colourblind (one of the red/greens, Deutans or Protans) so the images all looked pretty much the same to me, filters or no.
I've never had any trouble playing Carcassonne (that I can remember), and looking at pictures of Carcassonne II (or Summer Edition) I haven't had any trouble so far. However, I would be interested in playing with II and seeing if I have any issues. Perhaps I'll buy it for that reason.
It is interesting to consider though. As I said, I've yet to have any problems with Carcassonne, but some games have given me trouble. I was playing Castles of the Mad King Ludwig a few weeks ago, and there were two room types that I just couldn't tell apart.
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I'm colour blind too. I have trouble with red and green meeples and also blue/pink/purple in artificial light. No problem in daylight though. I always choose yellow or white when I play. I could choose black, but never have.....don't know why!
I don't really understand what the Carcassonne II fuss is all about. The game was presumably conceived to be something that made money. It does that and some.
The Winter edition is a rehash with a better tile distribution, but where is the outcry?
Carcassonne II has an extra meeple type and Gardens.
No one is forced to buy either. I chose the winter edition at a great price, mine came with the gingerbread man incidentally.
My first decision point will be when either a big box or a 10th major expansion are produced. Big boxes are good value and a 10th expansion, if only in the new design would be too much for me to resist, I'd have to have it.
I have the spiel 14 and 15 tiles and they really need to be played with the new design......perhaps I could buy the new version for a relative. That could be a plan!!
Anyway I digress, if I had invented the game then I would think that after 15 years I may well look to reinvigorate it in some way. Maybe through greed, but more likely because I'd be a creative person that needs to gave consistent outlets for my creativity. Everything evolves.
Is there a step too far for Halfling....we've had double size tiles, triangular tiles and new designs and they are all fine for me, but if they messed with the type font on the box or the 'C' back of the tiles then even my patience could be tested.
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The Winter edition is a rehash with a better tile distribution, but where is the outcry?
The Winter Edition is a spin-off game. It is not intended to replace the original game. Carcassonne II is intended to replace the original game.
Plus, although everyone has their own opinion, the artwork for the Winter Edition was generally received favourably while the artwork for Carcassonne II was generally not received favourably. In my opinion, the WE artwork added beautiful touches to the original artwork while Carcassonne II did not.
Carcassonne II has an extra meeple type and Gardens.
This is part of the problem, for several reasons.
Firstly, abbot and gardens have changed the base game, to the point where the world championship in 2015 was played with the new artwork but without abbots and gardens, a situation that strikes me as quite ridiculous.
The core of Carcassonne has always been that there are four claimable features. Even after many major and minor expansions, this basic aspect of the game has never changed, and the expansions that have been introduced have always complemented this, or added cloister-like features like Shrines, Abbeys, German Monasteries or German Castles. Suddenly there is a fifth claimable feature in the base game, but it's basically the same as one of the other four. So what's the point?
That leads me to my next point, which is that the abbot/gardens really add nothing to the game in terms of gameplay; I don't see it as anything more than a half-baked idea, most likely to try to get fans of the original game to buy it because of this new aspect, which I don't think has worked.
Thirdly, the gardens don't belong thematically and are oversized.
No one is forced to buy either.
No one is forced to buy either, but it's pretty clear now that new expansions will come in the new artwork, so if you want to continue your collection, you will be forced to buy this artwork. Thankfully, those of us lucky enough to have a (more or less) complete collection in the original artwork can keep playing that and be happy with what they have.
Anyway, just my opinion. Thanks for the discussion! :)
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Firstly, abbot and gardens have changed the base game, to the point where the world championship in 2015 was played with the new artwork but without abbots and gardens, a situation that strikes me as quite ridiculous.
I disagree. Even though Abbots come with the base game now, they're still considered an expansion in the same way as The River is (which also comes bundled with the Carc 2.0 basegame). Hence why they didn't get used at the world championships (or the UK championships come to think of it, even though the Carc 2.0 tiles were used for some games).
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Firstly, abbot and gardens have changed the base game, to the point where the world championship in 2015 was played with the new artwork but without abbots and gardens, a situation that strikes me as quite ridiculous.
I disagree. Even though Abbots come with the base game now, they're still considered an expansion in the same way as The River is (which also comes bundled with the Carc 2.0 basegame). Hence why they didn't get used at the world championships (or the UK championships come to think of it, even though the Carc 2.0 tiles were used for some games).
OK, so maybe I overstated it a bit. But I think you have understated it. Let's try to meet in the middle!
I don't think you can describe abbots/gardens as an expansion just like the River or any other expansion given how it has been incorporated into the base game. If the gardens only appeared on six (or however many) separate tiles, then of course, I'd completely agree with you.
As it is now, even if you choose not to play with the abbot, the gardens themselves are on the base game tiles and on tiles for other expansions. So at the very least, gardens encroach on the base game and the whole series more than any other expansion that's ever been released. And if you're not playing with the abbot, the gardens just take up room on the tiles and clutter everything up for no reason.
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OK, I'll meet you in the middle... :)
If an expansion necessitates specific changes to the base game tiles, rather than just adding to them, then it's more than just a typical expansion. But this doesn't mean it's become part of the base game either, and the gardens are just as easily ignored as the blue roofs or anything else about the new artwork as the player wishes. Perhaps this is another case of mechanics over aesthetics but at the UK champs we just put the Abbots back in the box and played as normal. It didn't feel ridiculous at all!
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So, if the Winter Carcassonne had been the 'replacement' rather than a 'spin-off' it would've been ok because the artwork is well received and there are no gardens/abbots. Thus Carcassonne II would not have been needed and everyone would be united in pleasant thoughts about the whole Carcassonne world.
That makes sense. I'm happy now.
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So, if the Winter Carcassonne had been the 'replacement' rather than a 'spin-off' it would've been ok because the artwork is well received and there are no gardens/abbots. Thus Carcassonne II would not have been needed and everyone would be united in pleasant thoughts about the whole Carcassonne world.
That makes sense. I'm happy now.
Sorry, but no, this is not what I said. I said the main reason there is no outcry over the Winter Edition is that it's a spin-off game so it doesn't affect the main game in any way. It's just an extra game if you want it. I happen to like the Winter Edition. On the other hand, there are other spin-off games that I don't like. But that's OK - they're just spin-offs.
If the Winter Edition was Carcassonne II, I think there would still be plenty of upset people that our beloved Carcassonne I was being phased out. So maybe the takeaway is this: any new edition would probably have caused problems or resistance from some of those who love the original, so if you're going to make a new edition, you better make sure the new artwork is spectacular (e.g. like Graham W's designs) before you release it.
OK, I'll meet you in the middle... :)
Cool, nice to see you here in the middle. What should we do now that we're both here :)
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OK, I'll meet you in the middle... :)
Cool, nice to see you here in the middle. What should we do now that we're both here :)
How about a game of Carcassonne? Do you mind if we play with the new artwork edition? ;)
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Only if we play with Inns and Cathedrals in the old artwork.
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How about a game of Carcassonne? Do you mind if we play with the new artwork edition? ;)
Only if we play with Inns and Cathedrals in the old artwork.
I only play with the 70-point scoreboard.
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How about a game of Carcassonne? Do you mind if we play with the new artwork edition? ;)
Only if we play with Inns and Cathedrals in the old artwork.
I only play with the 70-point scoreboard.
Awesome! :(y) First to 70 wins... :)
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I only play Mancala now.
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I'll just watch the 70 point match - I've been beaten by Jungleboy too often.
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I'll just watch the 70 point match - I've been beaten by Jungleboy too often.
Maybe I should watch too as I usually get beaten by Dan these days. I can only beat him when we are playing for the right to bid on auction items :)
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I'll just watch the 70 point match - I've been beaten by Jungleboy too often.
Maybe I should watch too as I usually get beaten by Dan these days. I can only beat him when we are playing for the right to bid on auction items :)
That game still haunts me! I was so sure I had it but then you cunningly tied (or possibly won) the main farm and it all went downhill for me. Also, cough (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=743.msg8081#msg8081) cough (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=743.msg8090#msg8090). :'(
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I finally voted "3". I consider it very unlikely to ever buy an expansion in v. 2, although it might be tempting, if some ingenious new mechanism is introduced. But then again, Goldrush and South Seas is tempting for me, too, but I still resist, because there are so many different combinations to play with classic Carc for unlimited replayability, and I rather buy some completely different games instead. But before I get a CarcII expansion (either to mix it with old art or together with v2-base game), I'd rather buy one of the spin offs, which intrigues me.
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I'll never buy anything on the v.2 artwork unless it is not released on the v.1 artwork or if it is a reprint of something sold out or rare to find like CCI
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I'll never buy anything on the v.2 artwork unless it is not released on the v.1 artwork or if it is a reprint of something sold out or rare to find like CCI
Cool, I look forward to playing with you in the old art when I move to Portugal :)
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I'll never buy anything on the v.2 artwork unless it is not released on the v.1 artwork or if it is a reprint of something sold out or rare to find like CCI
Cool, I look forward to playing with you in the old art when I move to Portugal :)
Are you moving in? If you need anything just say I'll help as possible.
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Are you moving in? If you need anything just say I'll help as possible.
Thanks! We are thinking of moving to Lisbon at the end of this year. That's our plan, but we haven't started any parts of the process yet so we could still change our minds.
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Are you moving in? If you need anything just say I'll help as possible.
Thanks! We are thinking of moving to Lisbon at the end of this year. That's our plan, but we haven't started any parts of the process yet so we could still change our minds.
Nice. No more off topic. I'll drop you a PM.
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So, over 20% of people who answered this poll said that they didn't like Carcassonne II but would buy new expansions in the new artwork, while over 40% said they didn't like Carcassonne II and wouldn't buy anything in the new artwork. With the 10th major expansion on the way in the new artwork only and a mini-expansion in the new artwork to be included in the new Big Box (according to this thread (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2477.msg35414#msg35414)), we'll have to see if people do what they said they'd do or if they change their minds. Perhaps it depends on how good these new expansions are.
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If the big money players (the guys and gals who buy every expansion) reject Carc II, it will become a New Coke situation. I doubt that will happen as the new game seems to be selling ok.
Ever notice classic games being re-released in their old style? Right now I can go to Target and buy 1950s Risk, Sorry, Clue, etc. I imagine in 20 years, old will be new again, and at least the base game will be released as "Classic Carcassonne - with the River 6".
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If the big money players (the guys and gals who buy every expansion) reject Carc II, it will become a New Coke situation. I doubt that will happen as the new game seems to be selling ok.
I don't think Carc 2.0 is marketed at the big money players though. We've already bought everything, so they don't get any money from us until they release new stuff for us to buy. By giving the basic game an overhaul they can broaden their appeal to newer gamers who might feel that classic Carc looks a little dated after 16 years. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I think it makes sense financially, and based on what I've seen from a new generation of Carcassonne players on Twitter and Facebook, most of them are thrilled to bits with their latest purchase and are enjoying the artwork.
As loyal and enthusiastic as we are, hardcore fans like us are not where the money's at. If they can't keep the game alive without money then I'm all for them doing whatever they need to in order to keep the expansions coming regardless of who illustrated the tiles.
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I don't think Carc 2.0 is marketed at the big money players though. We've already bought everything, so they don't get any money from us until they release new stuff for us to buy. By giving the basic game an overhaul they can broaden their appeal to newer gamers who might feel that classic Carc looks a little dated after 16 years. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I think it makes sense financially, and based on what I've seen from a new generation of Carcassonne players on Twitter and Facebook, most of them are thrilled to bits with their latest purchase and are enjoying the artwork.
I wonder how many folks only bought the new game because of the new art. I can't imagine the original artwork precluding someone from purchasing the original game. I am way late to the party and ended up with the old artwork not knowing there was new artwork. I probably would have been just as happy if I received the new artwork instead. Until I saw the old artwork of course :P
In the end it was a business decision and you are correct that they have alreasy made money from all of you.
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I'm (fairly) fairly sure I haven't posted in this thread yet, and it's because I've been having an argument with myself (as is my habit of doing, noted by Jungleboy in the Completion post on Shrines) about what to do. The argument goes a little like this:
Christopher: I MUST BUY CARCASSONNE 2 BECAUSE IT'S CARCASSONNE!
Christopher: Don't be daft, it's the base game and you already have the base game.
Christopher: I MUST BUY CARCASSONNE 2 BECAUSE OF THE ABBOTS!
Christopher: Don't be daft, sooner or later the Abbots will be available separately. Probably. Also, you're not a fan of the art.
Christopher: That's true. I suppose I could wait for a Big Box in the new art.
Christopher: But then you'd be buying all of the expansions you already have. Pointless. Plus, you'd have no where to store them because you don't like storing things in a big box.
Christopher: What if I buy all of them separately then, and store them in the base game box? Or buy the base game AND a big box?
Christopher: At great expense? To buy games you already have? And have two copies of the new base game??
Christopher: Then I'll have a set of Abbots for the old collection!
Christopher: Now you're being daft again.
Christopher: But now it seems to have been confirmed that the next big expansion will only be available in the new art. And I'll have to buy that, which means I'll need the base game to play it with. And then I'll need all of the other expansions because I might want to play with those and the new expansion.
Christopher: You can just buy the new expansion, and play it with the other expansions in the old art. After all, they are backwards compatible owing to the backs of the tiles being the same. *cough*
Christopher: But all of the new art expansions have gardens to be compatible with the Abbot. Even if we somehow manage to get hold of some Abbot followers, they'll only be compatible with the latest expansion!
Christopher: ... Shoot, I hadn't thought of that. Good point.
Christopher: And even if we do buy ALL of the old expansions in the new art, they won't be printing things like tunnels and plague in the new art. So if we wanted to play Mega-Carcassonne, we'll still have to mix old and new!
Christopher: And which will we play with typically?? Old or new?? We can't let the old copies gather dust, but if we like the new expansion and want to play with that often, we'll need gardens... WHAT DO WE DO??
As you can see, I haven't got very far.
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Shut up and buy it already!
:)
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Guess I'll buy the new big box with all new art. For 35 € here in Germany it's worth it no matter what
And I already bought 2 Big boxes, so why not 3 :)
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Shut up and buy it already!
Nooo! Keep holding out!
:)
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Shut up and buy it already!
Nooo! Keep holding out!
Hold out for what? Carc 2.0 isn't going away.
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Shut up and buy it already!
Nooo! Keep holding out!
Hold out for what? Carc 2.0 isn't going away.
I know, I was just kidding around to try to confuse Christopher some more.
What I really meant was 'Don't cave in', although of course if he wants to buy Carc 2.0 then that's entirely up to him.
Not that this keeps me up at night, but on a general level I hope that if people don't like it, they won't go out and buy it just 'because it's Carcassonne'. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, don't buy it. The most powerful way that consumers can let product makers know what they like is by voting with their wallet. But if people keep buying things they don't like, it will encourage producers to make more of these 'unliked' products. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another field unrelated to collecting in which people would knowingly purchase something they already knew that they did not like.
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Shut up and buy it already!
Nooo! Keep holding out!
Hold out for what? Carc 2.0 isn't going away.
I know, I was just kidding around to try to confuse Christopher some more.
I think my head may explode. Either that, or a third opinion will break away and form a splinter group.
Christopher: Buy all of the separate expansions AND the Big Box! Mwhahahaha!
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On an unrelated note, you don't need gardens to play with the Abbott. Just use the much nicer and thematic vineyards. There's plenty of them, too if you combine Hills and Sheep, River III and Halflings II
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On an unrelated note, you don't need gardens to play with the Abbott. Just use the much nicer and thematic vineyards. There's plenty of them, too if you combine Hills and Sheep, River III and Halflings II
Unless you also want to play with vineyards. And that's still only three expansions out of [whatever the total number of Carcassonne expansions is] that will have them.