Clarification of rules (Markets of Leipzig and more) - with HiG - 21 08 2024

[Meepledrone]

I sent a few questions about The Markets of Leipzig to HiG and we got the following clarifications from Ron Bussenius.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in MAROON

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6711.0

[Meepledrone]

[Q1] If several roads connected to Leipzig are completed with one tile placement, players with the majority on each road would be able to send one meeple from each of them to Leipzig. Is this correct?

[A1] Yes, it is. Each scoring is separate and so you can choose what to do.

[Meepledrone]

[Q2] Red completes a road connected to Leipzig with 2 red meeples and 1 blue meeple. Red decides to send one of their meeples to Leipzig. After sending their meeple to Leipzig, the majority is reevaluated on the road and both Red and Blue (with 1 meeple each now) score for the road. Is this correct?

[A2] No, it's not. Blue doesn't score, because Red has 2 meeples on the road.

Sending a meeple to Leipzig is your scoring, only if you have 2 meeple you can "double" score.
See it like this: Red has 2 meeples on the road and Blue only 1. So Blue takes their meeple back, without any scoring. Then Red "scores" by sending a meeple to Leipzig, and then Red can score again because there is still a meeple on the road.

This means that the red meeple sent to Leipzig would not score points for the road itself but it would score other points as usual (fairy, ghosts, watchtowers), even if alone on the road, since the meeple sent to Leipzig is actually scored (although in a different way).

[Meepledrone]

[Q3.1] The Bookbinders quarter bonus is not scored for an unoccupied monastery. The bonus is only scored for completed, occupied monasteries (no matter the player). Is this correct?

[A3.1] Yes. If there is no player in the monastery, you didn't score it and no Bookbinders quarter bonus is received.


[Q3.2] A completed, unoccupied monastery will not grant the Bookbinders quarter bonus even if an Exp. 8 castle scores points for the unoccupied monastery. Only a monastery scoring points directly is taken into consideration (completed and occupied). Is this correct?

[A3.2] Yes. In the rules of Exp. 8 for the castle it is also written "complete" not "scored".

A castle scores points for a completed feature in its fief, no matter if occupied. If a monastery in a castle fief is unoccupied, the monastery completion will trigger the scoring of the castle, but it will not grant the Bookbinders quarter bonus, since nobody occupies the monastery and scores points for it directly.

[Paloi Sciurala]

Very logical clarifications.

It is surprising that HiG gave clarifications for The Markets of Leipzig, though.

[Meepledrone]

[Q4] Any Leipzig quarter bonus (Wainwrights, Bookbinders, Coiners) can be granted in the same turn a meeple is sent to the given quarter (the reference in the rules to the Wainwrights quarter bonus is not an exception but an example). Is this correct?

[A4] Yes, this is right.

Paraphrasing the rules: "If you have more than one meeple on the road [...] you may, however, score the points for the road [...] If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately"

In the rules it's not clarified what you score first, so basically the person placing the tile (the active player) can choose what will be scored first (road or city or monastery).

So the order of scoring is important, since the Leipzig quarter bonus is active as soon as a meeple is sent to Leipzig. In case of conflict, the active player decides the scoring order.

[Meepledrone]

Very logical clarifications.

It is surprising that HiG gave clarifications for The Markets of Leipzig, though.

They won't have any issues in clarifying the basic mechanics of any expansions. The issue is asking them about interactions with other expansions. So we need to be careful about how to address them.

Regarding the clarifications, we will have revert some changes applied after discussing this expansions with Kettlefish, who providd a different point of view. In the end, the clarifications follow our original understanding, but some remarks by Ron shed some light about the inner workings of Markets of Leipzig. This is key to me:

Sending a meeple to Leipzig is a scoring action... so bonuses associated to the meeple sent to Leipzig is "scored" and any bonuses/penalties associated to it should apply as usual.

It sounds like the scoring of a cemetery keeper: No points, but side effect instead.

I'm updating Markets of Leipzig on WICA right now. But we will have to update the Reference pages accordingly next.

[Vital Pluymers]

Interesting clarifications 

[Meepledrone]

Thanks! They confirm the original interpretation with a twist: the idea of the double scoring is intersting and has a lot of implications for bonuses...

Moreover, we got the confirmation that the active player decides the order of scoring, which is important in case of conflict (remember bathouses? ).

We have to make this coexist with robbers/messengers, castles and the teacher... We can achieve this for the time being though!!! 

Here is my suggestd update to the turn sequence:
   1) Placing  a tile
   2) Placing a meeple
   3) Scoring a feature
        Step 3B) Regular scoring takes place
           - Prologue bonuses are scored as usual (watchtowers, tollhouses)
           - Majority in toads is evaluated as usual
           - Players check for meeples that can be sent to Leipzig
              - Candidates: meeples on completed roads connected to Leipzig where the player has the majority.
           - Players decide which meeples are sent to Leipzig, if any
           - Roads are scored as usual but those with only one meeple to be sent to Leipzig score 0 points taking ghosts into account
             - A meeple with ghosts sent to Leipzig will score negative points (the player has the majority)
           - Epilog bonuses are scored as usual (teacher, fairy, ringmaster)
           - Selected meeples are sent to Leipzig, activating their bonus right away
           - Leipzig bonuses are granted
              - The roads just scored may benefit from the Wainwrights quarter bonus if the players with the majority still have meeples on them
           - The remaining meeples are removed as usual or moved (wagon, drawbridge, bathhouse)
              - No meeple on a road sending one or more meeples to Leipzig can be sent to a bathhouse (see notes below)

Notes:
* Since the Leipzig bonuses are activated during th scoring loop, the scoring order is important. The active player decides in case of conflict.
* This also makes me think that Bathhouses will not affect roads sending meeples to Leipzig:
   - A road with 1 meeple: Sending the meeple to Leipzig takes priority, so this is a 1-meeple scoring where no meeple can be sent to Leipzig. Only a meeple on a road scored as usual can be sent to a bathhouse.
   - A road with 2 meeples or more: Even if one of them is sent to Leipzig, it is not a 1-meeple scoring, so no meeple could go to a bathhouse as per the rules.
 

[Meepledrone]

[Q5.1] The base game of the Second and Third Edition of Carcassonne (C2/C3) always includes villages at every crossroads. This is not the case for the First Edition (C1), where CRRR tiles have trees at their crossroads instead of a village:



a) Does this crossroads with trees allow you to connect a road to Leipzig as well?
b) Does this crossroads with trees allow you to place a tollhouse token on it (see The Tollkeepers)?


[A5.1] These tiles are all the same, no matter which design.
In C2 and C3 this tile was redesigned to reduce these questions.
So you can act with this tile in C1 design in the same way as in C2 and C3.



[Q5.2] So, crossroads with villages and trees are equivalent for The Markets of Leipzig and The Tollkeepers. All crossroads (with a village or trees) can connect a road to Leipzig and you can place a tollhouse token on them. Is this correct?

[A5.2] Well, both mini expansions do really work with the C1 design.
But if you would like to combine these, crossroads with trees and villages are the same. In the German rules of Tollkeepers is also a bit more clear, because they say "a crossroads is mostly a village." This "mostly" is missing the original English translation.

The printed rules show some small changes in the wording between C2 and C3:

>> The Markets of Leipzig: Wording change from "Dorf" (village) to "Kreuzung" (crossroads):

* Main text:
     "Dies gilt auch für Straßen, die nicht direkt nach Leipzig führen, aber über Dörfer mit einer Straße nach Leipzig verbunden sind." -->
     "Dies gilt auch für Straßen, die nicht direkt nach Leipzig führen, aber über Kreuzungen mit einer Straße nach Leipzig verbunden sind."
* Example:
     "Du schließt die Straße mit deinem Meeple ab. Da die Straße mit Leipzig verbunden ist (hier über ein Dorf), darfst du deinen Meeple nach Leipzig schicken." -->
    "Du schließt die Straße mit deinem Meeple ab. Da die Straße mit Leipzig verbunden ist (in diesem Fall über eine Kreuzung), darfst du deinen Meeple nach Leipzig schicken."

>> The Tollkeepers: Addition of "meist" (mostly) to generalize crossroads (a crossroads is mostly a village, so it is also possible to have trees):

* Main text:
     Eine Kreuzung ist ein Dorf [...] --> Eine Kreuzung ist meist ein Dorf [...]



[Q5.3] Additionally, we should exclude small cottages ending a road, which are not crossroads. Is this correct?

Example of cottages (not a crossroads):



[A5.3] Yes, in both rules it clearly said "crossroads."

[Meepledrone]

[Q6] The rules of The Markers of Leipzig say:

"Tanners quarter: For each field scoring at the end of the game..."

a) Is the mention of "at the end of the game" just a comment to stress that fields are normally scored at the end of the game? The farmer rules say "...farmers are not scored during the game..." but we know this is not written in stone with some expansions.
b) Is the mention of "at the end of the game" an explicit limitation so any fields scored during the game (e.g. due to barns) cannot receive the Tanners quarter bonus?

[A6] There rules say "at the end of the game", so you have to do this at the end of the game.

This limitation may make the Tanners quarter bonus weaker than the other bonuses, but all expansions are balanced with the base game.
It's the same with the „Wonders of Humanity“, we try to give each more or less the same power with about 100 tiles. But when you play with 400 tiles the effects are completely different and stronger. 

The rules of Markets of Leipzig and the Wonders of Humanity consider "at the end of the game" as a hard limitation, so fields scored during the game don't get the Tanner quarter bonus nor the Wonder bonuses applicable at the end of the game. This could seem a very hard limitation when you play large games (a Mega-Carcassone), but HiG can't do rules for every possibility.

Note that the release of Wonders of Humanity was delayed due to some unbalanced scoring issues, so these limitations try to keep the game fair in scenarios that couldn't be analyzed during the creation of these expansions.