Author Topic: The Order of the Meeple (Read 20592 times)

MrNumbers · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:00:29 PM »

Quote from: SRBO on February 13, 2015, 12:38:02 PM

I for one very much like the idea if for example an Yellow member will win a tournement, that his action is being recorded and he then already finished the achievement necessery for the black member.

This is by design. One achievement can be used multiple times.

Hounk · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:24:34 PM »

I'm not sure, if I understand the following condition correctly:

Win any tournament match by xx points or more

So, just because of my one victory in T&B League with 111 points difference, I meet the "red belt" condition in this aspect, although most of my won games had been rather tight?

MrNumbers · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:36:10 PM »

Yes, Hounk, you understand this correctly.

Hounk · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:43:45 PM »

Fine with me. I think, this particular branch of requirements won't do a lot of delaying the advancing of any player. That's why I was uncertain, if I understood the wording correctly.

kettlefish · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:55:50 PM »

There is something what makes me confusing:

We are here in the forums section: LEAGUES

That means for me, that some special Bonus like MEEPLE comes only from the played games from the LEAGUE.

To put weekly online games, the CarcC WorldCup and the Leagues all together - that is for me here the problem.

The weekly online games are in a different section.
We don't have there any x-score list or something like this. Sometimes they play only with 2 people, sometimes with 3 or with 4 or with 5 people.
The weekly online game is so much different than the leagues. Each game here in the weekly online game has different expansions, sometimes many expansions. That means - the score difference is very difficult than in the league.

Also the CarcC WorldCup works different.

If you create an easy "Meeple" bonus for each section - than I will be happy.
-------------------------
the weekly online games - weekly
the League - perhaps 4 times a year
the CarcC WorldCup - once a year

MrNumbers · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2015, 02:02:50 PM »

Quote from: kettlefish on February 13, 2015, 01:55:50 PM

The weekly online game is so much different than the leagues. Each game here in the weekly online game has different expansions, sometimes many expansions. That means - the score difference is very difficult than in the league.

Just to be clear: score difference achievements affects only tournament games, i.e. official league games. Weekly games only represented by participation (Yellow Member) and winning (Blue and Black Members).

Paul · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2015, 03:23:02 PM »

Clearly my voice is not taken into consideration at all and it's obvious I won't have any one on my side nor reading what I write.

I hope some of you will at read this:

If you are going thru with this, which it seems like so, then please change a few key words.

Remove achievements and abilites and words that has to do with a player being good. For this is truly a random thing.

Understand that I am very upset about this and I feel betrayed so at least have the courtesy of adjusting this idea so it's solemny suited for the League and nothing in general, as it appears to be so atm.

Rosco · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2015, 05:19:03 PM »

I have read all the messages about this and I understand all sides. I like the idea of it in principle. I personally am unlikely to ever get to be black but I am ok with that. I realise my merit score is very low and that's ok too as I don't really contribute much to the forums. I can't make fan expansions and other similar things. But I appreciate those that do like kettlefish, obervet, yellow, Danisthirty, and various others.

I think that it is clear that yellow is frustrated by this but yellow I have to disagree about Carcassonne being truly random and luck of the draw. If it was, the same people wouldn't almost always win. (edit: there is obviously a large element of luck but skills and abilities and experience are important. I have managed to beat some very skilled players, but I have also lost drastically matches I shouldn't have. But usually I am consistent. )

But I do agree that maybe it should only include official competitions and have stats from other games just for interest sake. Challenge matches could be made official somehow but normal weekly online or table games should just be for interest sake.

How does that sound?

Andrew the Ambo · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2015, 05:54:34 PM »

One thing I would like clarified, do you have to meet all requirements for a level. I would think if you achieve half of them you advance to that level. I do like the concept.

The only other thing I would suggest is score differentials be wiped annually. It is a big handicap if you start by losing games and improve. It would take twice as long to get to the same level for a total newbie than an intermediate level player if they both end up at the same ability. They may be equal in skill but one will have a lot bigger score differential than the other.
Maybe score differentials could be based on your last 10 or 20 games or something like that so as you improve your earlier performance does not have so much influence.

DLloyd09 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2015, 08:54:52 PM »

I don't really have a horse in this race -- I don't particularly care for playing JCZ (not because I think it's a poor-quality piece of software, far from it, I think it's amazing), but just because I much prefer the experience of playing the real article; it makes playing the game that much more enjoyable for me if it's something I only do offline.

This isn't to say I won't come around, but for now I think I'll be steering clear of online play. That said, I've also loved following the progress of the T&B League these last few weeks, reading the game reports and tracking people's progress. I'm glad to see a bunch of folks having a good time and playing some really good games!

But I will also say this... I lurked around on these forums for a long time before deciding to poke my head up out of the water. And I'm glad I did, because it's nice to participate in the conversation instead of watch from afar. But speaking as someone who took a while to make that jump from lurker to participant, I would just want to make sure that the community stays open and accessible and as easily-welcoming to newcomers as possible. I definitely think that any sort of recognition of your progress in the Order of the Meeple "track" should be limited to within the "Leagues" forum, as a sticky post or whatever. That way people who want to participate in that can see their achievements recognized but new folks aren't wondering why their profiles aren't adorned with

or

and feel "left out" and maybe not want to participate (either in leagues or in general) for that reason.

Anyway, I'm sorry to see this has caused some distress. I'm sure that was the farthest thing from dan, MrNumbers, and jungleboy's minds.

jungleboy · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2015, 01:08:31 AM »

Thanks for all the comments guys. Obviously, we had hoped for a better reaction overall. Part of this must be our fault for miscalculating what some people would think of this idea. But I also think it's being blown out of proportion and misunderstood. All this was ever intended to be was as a fun side project connected to the online games and tournaments.

I'll try to address some of the comments from my point of view.

Quote from: SRBO on February 13, 2015, 12:38:02 PM

But to add to Yellow's comment, Maybe you can also add a similar idea in the future with NON-tournament based in with stuff like
- Design an Fan-expansion.
- Write 10 reviews of your played games (not online, and with picture!)
- Post a 1000 times.
- Own all the mini expansions released in 2014. (picture in your own Meet the member section )

In this case you meet some members who dont play much online game halfway. Its their choice to participate in the order of meeple.

We thought about something like this, a site-wide recognition achievement. But the thing is, everyone contributes to the site in their own way, and we didn't want to force people to contribute to different areas against their will just for a site-wide recognition. For example, not everyone is interested in making fan expansions. So we decided to make something just for one corner of the site - online play. It doesn't measure or pretend to measure overall contributions - it's just a kind of ranking system for the online players. If other people want to create a recognition system for fan expansions or reviews or anything else, then they are free to do so.

A week ago you suggested a CarcassonneCentral leaderboard for the tournament players. The Order of the Meeple is that leaderboard, and that's all it is intended to be.

Quote from: Andrew the Ambo on February 13, 2015, 05:54:34 PM

One thing I would like clarified, do you have to meet all requirements for a level. I would think if you achieve half of them you advance to that level. I do like the concept.

Thanks Andrew. The idea was to meet all requirements for each level, but you only need to achieve the requirement once (i.e. if you win a tournament game by 60 points while you are yellow, then this counts as the win that you need if/when it comes time to move from green to blue).

Quote from: Andrew the Ambo on February 13, 2015, 05:54:34 PM

The only other thing I would suggest is score differentials be wiped annually. It is a big handicap if you start by losing games and improve. It would take twice as long to get to the same level for a total newbie than an intermediate level player if they both end up at the same ability. They may be equal in skill but one will have a lot bigger score differential than the other.
Maybe score differentials could be based on your last 10 or 20 games or something like that so as you improve your earlier performance does not have so much influence.

Good point and we thought about this quite a lot. That's why we made the score differential for blue based on a single tournament rather than for a whole career, to make blue easier to achieve. We also discussed wiping the points but decided against it, though maybe we should reconsider based on feedback so far. Your annual idea is quite an interesting one.

Quote from: DLloyd09 on February 13, 2015, 08:54:52 PM

I definitely think that any sort of recognition of your progress in the Order of the Meeple "track" should be limited to within the "Leagues" forum, as a sticky post or whatever. That way people who want to participate in that can see their achievements recognized but new folks aren't wondering why their profiles aren't adorned with or and feel "left out" and maybe not want to participate (either in leagues or in general) for that reason.

Anyway, I'm sorry to see this has caused some distress. I'm sure that was the farthest thing from dan, MrNumbers, and jungleboy's minds.

Thanks for the support Doug and for your balanced comments. This is exactly what we had in mind - a little something extra for the online players. Those who don't play online don't need to be interested in or concerned by this. It doesn't measure your forum status or contributions, it just serves as a kind of leaderboard for the leagues and other online games.

Quote from: Rosco on February 13, 2015, 05:19:03 PM

I have read all the messages about this and I understand all sides. I like the idea of it in principle. I personally am unlikely to ever get to be black but I am ok with that.

Thanks for the comment Rosco. This is the type of response that we were hoping for

I don't know if I will ever get to black either but I am also fine with that - if everyone made it to black it would defeat the purpose of having this leaderboard. The idea is to celebrate everyone's achievements, whether that achievement is earning yellow or earning black or something in the middle.

Quote from: Yellow on February 13, 2015, 03:23:02 PM

Understand that I am very upset about this and I feel betrayed so at least have the courtesy of adjusting this idea so it's solemny suited for the League and nothing in general, as it appears to be so atm.

I understand that you are upset but I truly don't understand why you are so upset. The idea is already solely for leagues (plus some other online games). It's not a general recognition system.

Let me start again. Some people on the site participate in leagues and other online games. Not everyone participates, and that's fine. The idea behind the Order of the Meeple is to give a wider context for these competitions, a sort of ongoing leaderboard to put the results of all of these games into perspective. That's all.

Quote from: Yellow on February 13, 2015, 03:23:02 PM

Remove achievements and abilites and words that has to do with a player being good. For this is truly a random thing.

Achievements and abilities is the entire point of the idea to begin with - that's what the leagues measure and that's what the Order measures. We play these online games for fun, but we also play them for competitive reasons. That's why we have scoreboards and rankings for the leagues. The Order is simply an extension of that.

As for the bolded part, I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not true. For example, we have played three tournaments now and MrNumbers has come in the top two all three times. Do you really think this is truly random and that he is not an excellent player? We all know that there is luck involved in Carcassonne, but the games are not random, especially 2-player games.

To end on a positive note, let me go back to the first comment you made in this thread:

Quote from: Yellow on February 13, 2015, 07:49:45 AM

A great idea and sounds like fun!

I agree!

danisthirty · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2015, 01:09:38 AM »

Quote from: Yellow on February 13, 2015, 03:23:02 PM

Clearly my voice is not taken into consideration at all and it's obvious I won't have any one on my side nor reading what I write.

I've read everything you've written and I don't see it as being about sides. It's fine if you don't like this system, but I'm yet to understand why this is as everything you've posted about it so far seems to stem from your misunderstanding that it's based on what individuals are "worth" to the community as a whole. As discussed, we already have merit points and also a "Member of the Month" award of which you yourself were the first recipient. Personally I think this is enough, but if you want to take it further and come up with something of your own then I'd be very happy for you to do so, with or without my input.

Quote from: Yellow on February 13, 2015, 03:23:02 PM

Remove achievements and abilites and words that has to do with a player being good. For this is truly a random thing.

I respectfully decline this if you're suggesting that Carcassonne in general is entirely about luck. Some players are better than others and there are many factors to this including experience, how they react to various situations and general tactical preferences. Luck is of course a factor too and as such nobody is ever guaranteed a win no matter who they're playing. But achievements and abilities are still perfectly valid in the context of the online tournaments and games played here, so I don't see any reason to change this.

Quote from: Yellow on February 13, 2015, 03:23:02 PM

Understand that I am very upset about this and I feel betrayed so at least have the courtesy of adjusting this idea so it's solemny suited for the League and nothing in general, as it appears to be so atm.

It's pretty obvious that you're upset about it and I'm sorry that this is the case. This was never my intention, nor was it anything I considered likely. I would have consulted with you beforehand if I thought it would be a problem for you, but because this is purely about the tournaments and online play, and because jungleboy and MrNumbers have always been full of good ideas in this area in the past, I sought advice and collaborated with them. I don't regret this at all and I'm very grateful for their input.

If you feel disrespected in this, please understand that the whole area of online play between forum members is something that I've "owned" since May last year when I first suggested an online league even though I had no idea how one could be carried out. As others have eluded to, getting this up and running was a huge task but the fun we 7 had and the friendships we made along the way were worth it a hundred times over. Things have moved on since then, and the area of online play is becoming increasingly established within these forums. Please recognise that it hasn't just sprung up out of nowhere, and although I appreciate everything you do for the community in general in many different ways, this is not an area you have had any direct involvement in so why would I feel inclined to run everything by you? Because you're also an Administrator? I didn't involve Scott or Gantry in this either, but I'd be just as surprised if they felt upset or betrayed by my actions...

I don't know what the solution is, but I'm keen to hear from as many people as possible before making any decisions.

Hounk · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2015, 02:17:34 AM »

I'm very sorry about the issue, Yellow has with this system. It has nothing to do with neglecting his posts, I just don't know, how to reply to them. So I want just to reply to an other aspect below.

Quote from: Rosco on February 13, 2015, 05:19:03 PM

But I do agree that maybe it should only include official competitions and have stats from other games just for interest sake. Challenge matches could be made official somehow but normal weekly online or table games should just be for interest sake.

I would say, the inclusion of weekly online games is rather loose. There are just three points of requirements, and the biggest is for black belt, for which you have to win 5 individual games with at least 3 players and the first 5 expansions all covered at least once. And it made Jéré say: "Hey, now I can't totally neglect them any more." I think, this is a good thing. It wont exclude anybody from "black belt" or even "blue belt", because everybody, who is participating and is experienced enough to meet the other requirements of an individual belt, will sure take part in at least a few of this games to gain the needed victories there as well.

Plus, it adds a little layer of multi player gaming into the leader board. 2 player Carcassonne may be the "prime event", but Carcassonne is not a solemnly 2 player game and more players should not be completely excluded, since they require other skills.

jungleboy · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2015, 04:22:13 AM »

Thanks Hounk, your thoughts in this thread are exactly what we were thinking too!

Carcking · « **Reply #29 on:** February 17, 2015, 08:47:37 AM »

I'm a bit behind but I have now read all the posts on this topic. I have a couple of thoughts.

First, I'm not certain what the proposed method of recognition is. ? If I have an Order of the Meeple, how do others know it or see it? If it's contained in a sticky topic somewhere in the Forums, I am fine with that. If it is proposed as a banner or symbol or some such on public display on your profile panel adjacent to your avatar, etc. then I am not in favor of that. Any recognition there should be generic in nature. Such as the Merit system, which is generic. Or the Author banner, or Admin banner, etc. Those are generic in that they do not qualify who the best Author or Admin is, or who got the best Merits for what good work, etc. In keeping, any recognition there must be in a generic form - such as some symbol that indicates you have participated in some online play.

Any specialized ranking system should be contained in a sticky thread specific to online play.

Second, It seems odd to lump in the weekly online games with any recognition system. Putting aside the logistics and time zone issues of putting those games together, the nature of them is more casual than league play, and so subjective in outcome and player fancy that it would seem to preclude any measure of sheer ability.

Third, The points differential requirements should be excluded or at least greatly altered. This is purely about style of play and strategy. Speaking for myself, there is a strategy of play in attempting to keep scoring completely muted. Each, or any, game is not necessarily a race to some high score. It's a struggle to score more than the other player. There are different methods for achieving this that straight point differential recognition does not take into account. Requiring a game to be won by X points in order to achieve a particular level is no less arbitrary than requiring one to be won by less than 5 say.