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Does Anyone Play with Shrines?

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kothmann:
I have been experimenting with the official rules for Shrines, and found that they are rarely interesting and often cumbersome.  Most of the time, a player who would be initiating a challenge will have fewer surrounding tiles at the moment the tile is placed, so will be at a disadvantage, and thus decide not to challenge.  Or the challenge ends in a boring tie.  The result is that the rules mostly just restrict placement of tiles.  These are not new observations, and the problems seem to contribute to an overall low ranking for Count, King, and Robber.

I have been searching for variants, but not found much, save one interesting (as usual) idea from @Leven that makes use of the Cemetery expansion.

So, I guess I'm wondering if anyone has a different point of view about official rules for Shrines, or can suggest a variant that is worth a try.

Thanks!

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6114.0

DIN0:
Exactly! The Cults is one of those (many) unfortunate expansions that set out to do a very specific thing, but failed completely at execution. This is even worse because the cults are trying to solve a problem that never existed. For some reason, in the early years of casual Carcassonne there was this paradigm that cloisters are "too powerfull" and whoever draws more cloisters probably wins. This couldn't be further from the truth - cloisters are the weakest and most risky feature of the original game and for many many years has not recieved any boons in the various expansions making them seriously malnourished feature. In fact cloisters recieved several counter-elements (including cults) making them even weaker! It was way overdue when HiG finally decided to throw cloisters a bone. They are the ultimate red herring of Carcassonne.

Even if they were justified, the Cults failed for the reasons you mentioned. So to answer the question, no I usually don't play with rules for the Cults, just with the tiles to make them into more cloisters in hopes of making this feature type more powerful.

carca82:
I think I only experienced one (1) challenge between a monastery and a shrine since I've started playing the game. Most of the time the 5 shrine tiles are just there to get some easy heretic points. Usually when they are interesting it's just because they can't be played somewhere (because there's already two manasteries around) and the player doesn't realize it so the opponent can mock him relentlessy

kothmann:
Thanks for the reply @DIN0–wow I really hit a nerve!


--- Quote from: DIN0 on October 12, 2022, 04:25:14 PM ---cloisters are the weakest and most risky feature of the original game…

--- End quote ---
I agree they are often over-valued, but maybe they aren’t quite this bad?  I am usually delighted to draw a cloister early, when it will be surrounded quickly because there is nowhere else to play.  And who doesn’t love a late cloister that finally fills a gap in the landscape, sometimes even completing when the tile is placed!

In a base-game-only contest, typical winning score is probably between 70 and 80, with 7 meeples, so even a monk that generates 8 points while stuck the whole game isn’t that far from the average of 10 per meeple?  By comparison, a failed invasion of a farm can often yield a meeple that scores only 3 points or sometimes zero, though admittedly the upside potential is usually a lot higher.

Maybe the problem arises because most people throw in a couple of expansions and end up with 100, 120, or 150 tiles, with a similar increase in winning score, so in that case a stuck meeple is indeed a catastrophe?  I’ve notice that in small “Carc for 2” games with my wife, it feels like cloisters do indeed often tip the balance.


--- Quote ---It was way overdue when HiG finally decided to throw cloisters a bone.
--- End quote ---
The Abbott?  I can’t bring myself to use it, and not just because C1 doesn’t have gardens.  Just seems like the tactics are trivial and not interesting.


--- Quote ---I usually don't play with rules for the Cults, just with the tiles…

--- End quote ---
No variant rules?  Lots of possibilities…


--- Quote from: Sir Lose-a-Farm on October 13, 2022, 11:38:44 AM ---I think I only experienced one (1) challenge between a monastery and a shrine since I've started playing the game.

--- End quote ---
Thanks for the data point—very helpful.  Full disclosure: I don’t actually own Shrines, I was just experimenting with those rules as variants for the volcano tiles since I don’t play official dragon rules either.  But I’ve given up on that now and back to searching for volcano alternatives…

Decar:
I've played them alongside Cathars, as both were very early expansions for Carcassonne. I dislike the weird placement rules about them being too close to each other, which is a rule to prevent cloisters being put next to each other, but along with cathars, the extra tiles with the city escape rule makes this ok.

In theory adding more cloisters should normalize the chances of drawing all the cloister tiles, and the placement rules should restrict their piggyback effects. I might try this one again soon.

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