Author Topic: Clarification of rules (tunnels & the plague) - with Author - 14 08 2021  (Read 1875 times)

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
In recent days we got the following clarifications by email from Christwart Conrad, the creator of Carcassonne expansions such as Cathars / Siege / Besiegers, The Tunnel or The Plague.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.0
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
The Tunnel

[Q1] We would like to verify if the road ending at the group of houses splits the field at the top or not. In other words, does this tile have 3 or 4 fields?

[A1] This tile has 3 fields. See also:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1001627/tunnels-and-fields

The link to BGG indicated includes a thread discussing the number of fields featured on each tile of the expansion. The author confirmed that in this case the RRRR tile has only 3 fields.

A clarification section covering these tiles has been added to WICA:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tunnel_(1st_edition)#Additional_Clarifications
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 07:04:26 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
The Plague (part 1)

[Q2.1] Is any meeple in play allowed to take flight from the plague or only those on features affected by the plague?

[A2.1] Any.

Quote
At any point during his turn a player may move one of their meeples any number of tiles orthogonally within the same feature, provided they do not pass pass through or land on a tile with an active Outbreak or a Flea.

See: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/696667/rules-bsw-site-copied-plain-text

So according to the rules, quoted above, there is no restriction about what meeples can take flight from the plague (for example, only those on features already affected by the plague). Therefore, when an outbreak is active, any meeple in the playing area can take flight from the plague. 

The link to BGG provided by the author includes a great concise summary of the The Plague rules.




[Q2.2] We assume a meeple may take flight from the plague at any time during your turn, since the rules do not specify a particular moment. If this action is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?

[A2.2] No, it shouldn't. In order to avoid rules conflicts, spreading the plague [at any time] is not allowed before you know you didn't draw a plague source tile [and the tile drawn has a valid placement]. The rule allowing you to spread the plague at any time during your turn wouldn't make sense [if it could generate conflicts], so I'd skip this possibility explicitly.

The author then confirms that a player can spread the plague at any time during their turn but once the tile is placed, so there is no room for conflict if the tile drawn and placed is a plague source.



EDIT: Added some comments and updated wording to clarify the context for answer A2.2.

NOTE: More questions about The Plague answered answered in the following post below:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg79066#msg79066



NOTE 2: Summary diagrams for the action in The Plague available here:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg87346#msg87346
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 01:53:09 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
Ooh, Q1 for the plague makes great opportunities with the wagon  :yellow-meeple:

Quote
The rule allowing you to spread the plague at any time during your turn wouldn't make sense, so I'd skip this possibility explicitly.

So both moving a meeple and spreading the plague are now "Not anytime during our turn"?

When do we perform those actions then? Directly after drawing a tile? Or anytime but not before drawing a tile?  ???
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
The "any time during your turn" is still valid. The only additional restriction is "starting when"... So you cannot perform two incompatible actions on the same turn: spreading the plague and placing a source tile.

You can only spread the plague once you know the tile you have drawn and there is a valid placement for it. So there is no turning back for the tile and therefore no possible conflict.

So, you can move a flea at any time during your turn after you have placed your tile.

In other words, do it any time during your turn after placing your tile in Step 1C in 1. Placing a tile.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 08:54:36 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
Ok, thanks for those clarifications  :yellow-meeple:

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
No problem!

So no issues for the wagon... Only adding a restriction to the "at any time" part that could generate conflicts.

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
I wasn't referring to any issue with the wagon.
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
So we agree. I was thinking this was what you had in mind:

I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:

Online DIN0

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Merit: 32
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
So I see the answers no one thought we would ever get are here after all. Granted, they weren't really needed, because we already pretty confidently suspected the correct answers, but it is nice to have them anyway.

Also I believe there is a mistake here:
Quote
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify when in your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
The beginning should say "when in turn you can spread the plague" shouldn't it? That is what the question was about.

Quote
I wasn't referring to any issue with the wagon.
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:
This wouldn't actually introduce any new wagon movement opportunities because you stay within the same feature so all connected features remain the same also. Unless you mean C2 wagon, in which case yes. You probably meant C2 wagon rules, correct?

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of rules (tunnels & the plague) - with Author - 14 08 2021
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2021, 04:15:50 AM »
So I see the answers no one thought we would ever get are here after all. Granted, they weren't really needed, because we already pretty confidently suspected the correct answers, but it is nice to have them anyway.

Yep. But it is great to get confirmations from the author... And more to come soon!

Also I believe there is a mistake here:
Quote
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify when in your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
The beginning should say "when in turn you can spread the plague" shouldn't it? That is what the question was about.

I could also reword it as follows:

Quote
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify at what point during your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?

Do you find it easier to read?

Quote
I wasn't referring to any issue with the wagon.
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:
This wouldn't actually introduce any new wagon movement opportunities because you stay within the same feature so all connected features remain the same also. Unless you mean C2 wagon, in which case yes. You probably meant C2 wagon rules, correct?

Yep. He was talking about moving the wagon to a tile adjacent to feature of interest it could occupy after scoring the current one (C2 rules of course).

I also see another opportunity: moving a flea right before you move your wagon so you clear its way to its new destination.

BTW, speaking of the devial, here you are a comparison of the wagon rules I just added to WICA:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Wagon_Movement_Rules_Change

Online DIN0

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Merit: 32
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of rules (tunnels & the plague) - with Author - 14 08 2021
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2021, 04:41:56 AM »
Quote
I could also reword it as follows:

Quote

    [Q2.2] The rules do not specify at what point during your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?

No, no that is not the problem. I mean this particular piece of conversation discusses when during players turn can the plague be spread by placing a flea token and wether a conflicts may arise with another rule. But the beginning of your question make it seem as if the question was about a meeple taking flight which was already answered in the previous answer.
So the sentence should read: "The rules do not specify at what point during their turn, can the player place a flea token...".

Also I see the new answers were added to wica, but one of the red questions (12) remain despite being answered (but I am sure you're onto it).

There is one more thing I noticed could use a small clarification:
Quote
The follower may not take flight to or over a tile with a flea token (either active or latent), nor to a tile with an active Outbreak.
Does this mean that I can take a flight over a tile with an active outbreak as long as I end up on a legal tile? That would seem to slightly go against the theme of the expansion. Here is an illustration of what the current formulation would imply. (red arrows indicate invalid flight; blue valid):
https://ibb.co/2vh0Nc5
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 05:36:54 AM by DIN0 »

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5312
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of rules (tunnels & the plague) - with Author - 14 08 2021
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2021, 08:03:19 AM »
Quote
I could also reword it as follows:

Quote

    [Q2.2] The rules do not specify at what point during your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?

No, no that is not the problem. I mean this particular piece of conversation discusses when during players turn can the plague be spread by placing a flea token and wether a conflicts may arise with another rule. But the beginning of your question make it seem as if the question was about a meeple taking flight which was already answered in the previous answer.
So the sentence should read: "The rules do not specify at what point during their turn, can the player place a flea token...".

The context in this question is quite verbose indeed. You may suggest a better wording.

Also I see the new answers were added to wica, but one of the red questions (12) remain despite being answered (but I am sure you're onto it).

I'm still discussing the answers for address the open issues in footnotes 9 and 12. So far I got a partial answer that indicates that the builder and the pig can flee the plague.

So this would mean that they are affected by the plague and the can take flight form it the same as meeples. Trying to cover the same issue for the shepherd too.

There is one more thing I noticed could use a small clarification:
Quote
The follower may not take flight to or over a tile with a flea token (either active or latent), nor to a tile with an active Outbreak.
Does this mean that I can take a flight over a tile with an active outbreak as long as I end up on a legal tile? That would seem to slightly go against the theme of the expansion. Here is an illustration of what the current formulation would imply. (red arrows indicate invalid flight; blue valid):
https://ibb.co/2vh0Nc5

Very interesting point!

I revisited the original rules in German and English and compared them with the wording on this page.  It turns out there is a slight mistranslation here coming from the CAR v7.4. :o

The original rules in English by spielbox read as follows:

Quote
Players may not flee onto or across a tile containing a Flea (whether active or inactive) or an active Outbreak (number
with rat).

Error corrected. Thank you for pointing this out!!!

Online DIN0

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Merit: 32
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Clarification of rules (tunnels & the plague) - with Author - 14 08 2021
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2021, 08:22:15 AM »
Quote
The context in this question is quite verbose indeed. You may suggest a better wording.
The wording is good, I just feel like beginning part of the question was switched around? The question is regarding timing of flea placement, but the first sentence asks about meeple flight?

Quote
I'm still discussing the answers for address the open issues in footnotes 9 and 12. So far I got a partial answer that indicates that the builder and the pig can flee the plague.

So this would mean that they are affected by the plague and the can take flight form it the same as meeples. Trying to cover the same issue for the shepherd too.
Interesting. Special figures taking flight is unexpected, but useful outcome! So I suppose the Shepherd would flee with his flock?

Quote
Error corrected. Thank you for pointing this out!!!
No problem. I have been reading that sentence for years and only now noticed this discrepancy :o

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
Re: Clarification of rules (tunnels & the plague) - with Author - 14 08 2021
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2021, 08:26:30 AM »
If the plague do also affect special figures, I hope it affects the same figures than the dragon. It would be logical (any flesh-made figure may become ill) and it would avoid to create another list of affected figures  :yellow-meeple:


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
Carcassonne Corn Circles, Plague & Tunnels Expansion

Started by Hylian87

5 Replies
7358 Views
Last post May 27, 2014, 07:46:26 PM
by BenTF
xx
Carcassonne: Corn Circles, Plague & Tunnels

Started by bmadccp

13 Replies
7123 Views
Last post February 07, 2017, 01:08:12 PM
by thodekey
xx
Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021

Started by Meepledrone

85 Replies
6810 Views
Last post March 16, 2021, 06:21:22 AM
by corinthiens13
xx
Clarification of rules (fields & magic portals) - with HiG - 29 01 2021

Started by Meepledrone

9 Replies
1049 Views
Last post January 31, 2021, 11:21:18 AM
by DIN0
xx
Clarification of rules (acrobats & phantoms, Leipzig) - with HiG - 21-25 06 2021

Started by Meepledrone

9 Replies
614 Views
Last post July 21, 2021, 01:59:05 AM
by Meepledrone