Author Topic: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne  (Read 3870 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2021, 02:58:53 PM »
Well, The sentence is at the end of a paragraph starting with the conditions to move a meeple to Carcassonne:

German wording:
Quote
Jedes Mal, wenn du bei 3. Eine Wertung auslösen selbst eine Wertung auslöst, bei der mindestens ein Mitspieler Punkte erhält, du selbst jedoch keine, darfst du am Zugende 1 Meeple aus deinem Vorrat auf ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen. Zusätzlich darfst du den Grafen in ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen.

English translation:
Quote
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.

So, the actions are to be linked, right?

Note: This is a deja vu of the Markets of Leipzig re: the conditions to get the Wainwright quarter bonus when sending a meeple to Leipzig (only from a road with more than one meeple) ;)

It has to be in the same paragraph as it is linked to the same condition that is "Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not".

But the two following actions (place a meeple and move the count) are two separate phrases, with "zuzatzlich" inbetween. I personnally do not understand this phrase as beeing dependent to each other, but only dependent to the scoring condition.  ???

But the wording is probably not clear enough to be sure of anything, so... Ok, let's say it's dependent, we have to take an option :)

By the way, speaking some German I do not use Google translate. But when we give full attention to a specific word, we should translate the word only in Google to get its different meanings. Zusätzlich doesn't mean "in addition" (that's "und dazu"). Zusätzlich means moreover, furthermore, additionally, supplementary...
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2021, 11:23:44 PM »
Well, The sentence is at the end of a paragraph starting with the conditions to move a meeple to Carcassonne:

German wording:
Quote
Jedes Mal, wenn du bei 3. Eine Wertung auslösen selbst eine Wertung auslöst, bei der mindestens ein Mitspieler Punkte erhält, du selbst jedoch keine, darfst du am Zugende 1 Meeple aus deinem Vorrat auf ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen. Zusätzlich darfst du den Grafen in ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen.
English translation:
Quote
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.

So, the actions are to be linked, right?

Note: This is a deja vu of the Markets of Leipzig re: the conditions to get the Wainwright quarter bonus when sending a meeple to Leipzig (only from a road with more than one meeple) ;)

It has to be in the same paragraph as it is linked to the same condition that is "Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not".

But the two following actions (place a meeple and move the count) are two separate phrases, with "zuzatzlich" inbetween. I personnally do not understand this phrase as beeing dependent to each other, but only dependent to the scoring condition.  ???

But the wording is probably not clear enough to be sure of anything, so... Ok, let's say it's dependent, we have to take an option :)

By the way, speaking some German I do not use Google translate. But when we give full attention to a specific word, we should translate the word only in Google to get its different meanings. Zusätzlich doesn't mean "in addition" (that's "und dazu"). Zusätzlich means moreover, furthermore, additionally, supplementary...

Have you seen the first attachment posted by Carcassonne 93?
It states:

Quote
Der Graf
Immer wenn ein Spieler einen Gefolgsmann in die Stadt Carcassonne
stellt, darf er auch den Grafen in ein beliebiges der vier Stadtviertel stellen.

I think this closes the discussion. There is clearly a dependency.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2021, 11:57:48 PM »
It is c1, but you're probably right  ;)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2021, 12:09:25 AM »
In this case, the "if you did the placement" clause was added to the Order of Play after a discussion with Carcassonne93, who felt that use of "then" wasn't stressing enough the requirement whereby the Count can only be moved if you place a meeple in Carcassonne.

So, the same wording change could be applied to the C2 Exp. 6 rules to remove the ambiguous interpretation.

Adding this change to Exp. 6 rules could be nice to avoid misinterpretation, maybe with a reference to C1's rules Carcassonne93 provided.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2021, 03:19:09 AM »
Ha ha ha! We've been going in circles...

I included the excerpt from the C1 rules for "Count"  in post #3 of this thread, which Carcassonne93 mentioned in post #14 later. Maybe you missed it.

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4986.msg73762#msg73762


[...]

B) Moving the Count

Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
The Order of Play also uses "then" in its wording for the same reason.

The C1 rules use a different wording but confirm the same restriction:
Quote
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2021, 05:52:39 AM »
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.

There's no dependency ?   ???

Hi again, I have some news  ;)

My interpretation was correct  :D

I asked HiG about this (can we move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne), and the answer I got from Andreas Kramer is Yes  ;)

Screenshots of the e-mails below. I can forward the e-mail if necessary.

This should be included as a note in exp 6 rules, and as a possibility in the order of play:

If the conditions are met, we may:
  • Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne only
  • Move the count only
  • Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and then move the count

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2021, 06:22:10 AM »
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.

There's no dependency ?   ???

Hi again, I have some news  ;)

My interpretation was correct  :D

I asked HiG about this (can we move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne), and the answer I got from Andreas Kramer is Yes  ;)

Screenshots of the e-mails below. I can forward the e-mail if necessary.

This should be included as a note in exp 6 rules, and as a possibility in the order of play:

If the conditions are met, we may:
  • Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne only
  • Move the count only
  • Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and then move the count

I think Andreas Kramer should firstly reread the rules again...
This can't be right...  :-[

That would change the game play with the Count completely. The challenge and fun while playing with the Count is that you have to "sacrifice" a meeple (and a few points) to be able to deblock the meeple(s) you want to use. With this clarification, you would only have to sacrifice a few points...

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2021, 06:38:45 AM »
I think Andreas Kramer should firstly reread the rules again...
This can't be right...  :-[

That would change the game play with the Count completely. The challenge and fun while playing with the Count is that you have to "sacrifice" a meeple (and a few points) to be able to deblock the meeple(s) you want to use. With this clarification, you would only have to sacrifice a few points...

As I said earlier, I think the rules goes totally in the way Andreas explained:
Quote
If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...".

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:41:25 AM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2021, 07:21:55 AM »
I agree that maybe Andres does not know this expansion in detail.

I just remembered the official variants for the movement of the Count that HiG released for C1:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D

Please check the wording of the variants. I underlined the interesting parts (Note: by freely moving the Count, they are referring to the movement of the Count to any district of choice of the active player):
Quote
Even the aristocracy are subject to certain rules, and cannot simply do whatever they may want. The following variants take this into account and constrain the freedom of the Count. Using these variants will provide even more tactical possibilities. In both variants, the Count may no longer be freely moved, but rather:

* whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count is moved clockwise to the next city district, or
* the Count is moved to whichever city district the new meeple is deployed to.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2021, 08:02:45 AM »
I agree that maybe Andres does not know this expansion in detail.

I just remembered the official variants for the movement of the Count that HiG released for C1:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D

Please check the wording of the variants. I underlined the interesting parts (Note: by freely moving the Count, they are referring to the movement of the Count to any district of choice of the active player):
Quote
Even the aristocracy are subject to certain rules, and cannot simply do whatever they may want. The following variants take this into account and constrain the freedom of the Count. Using these variants will provide even more tactical possibilities. In both variants, the Count may no longer be freely moved, but rather:

* whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count is moved clockwise to the next city district, or
* the Count is moved to whichever city district the new meeple is deployed to.

That's true, but those are CI rules, and they were totally different.

CI rule makes it clear that we may move the count only if we did place a meeple in the city:
Quote
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.

CII rules have changed:
Quote
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

If they changed the rules, that's for a reason  ;)

If HiG wanted us to play with CI rule, they wouldn't have changed the rules for CII. And once again, the wording of CII German rules makes it clear that we may move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple:
Quote
If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...".

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2021, 08:11:51 AM »
Note that every example that were mentioned in this thread to argue that we can not move the count only were from CI, never from CII  ;)

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2021, 08:16:00 AM »
I agree that maybe Andres does not know this expansion in detail.

I just remembered the official variants for the movement of the Count that HiG released for C1:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D

Please check the wording of the variants. I underlined the interesting parts (Note: by freely moving the Count, they are referring to the movement of the Count to any district of choice of the active player):
Quote
Even the aristocracy are subject to certain rules, and cannot simply do whatever they may want. The following variants take this into account and constrain the freedom of the Count. Using these variants will provide even more tactical possibilities. In both variants, the Count may no longer be freely moved, but rather:

* whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count is moved clockwise to the next city district, or
* the Count is moved to whichever city district the new meeple is deployed to.

That's true, but those are CI rules, and they were totally different.

CI rule makes it clear that we may move the count only if we did place a meeple in the city:
Quote
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.

CII rules have changed:
Quote
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

If they changed the rules, that's for a reason  ;)

If HiG wanted us to play with CI rule, they wouldn't have changed the rules for CII. And once again, the wording of CII German rules makes it clear that we may move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple:
Quote
If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...".

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).

I am still not convinced that they wanted to change the rules. There is a difference between rephrasing a text and changing a rule.
"Zusätzlich" means "additionally". Adding means +1, one can only add something to another action that was already done.

Nevertheless, I will stick to the C I rules for sure. I cannot think of any improvement HiG came up with when they were adapting rules. They were wrong when they changed the rules for the wagon, they messed up when they changed the rules for monasteries (spaces vs tiles) and they are wrong once again if they changed the rules for the movement of the Count (if this would really be a change of the rules...).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 08:20:44 AM by Vital Pluymers »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2021, 02:55:23 PM »
Nobody asked this question again?
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Main_Page/ro). I have over 23,900 edits at WICA. My WICA user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:NGC_54. See at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Category:Finalizate the WICA pages completely translated in Romanian.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2021, 04:02:05 PM »
I asked HiG about this... One more reply I'm wating for...

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2022, 10:20:58 AM »
I think that at least a footnote on WICA regarding this issue should pe placed at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber.


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