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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: carca82 on September 28, 2022, 02:49:24 PM

Title: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: carca82 on September 28, 2022, 02:49:24 PM
Look at the following scenario:

(https://i.postimg.cc/q7PfnMHM/IMG-20220928-191320429-HDR.jpg)

Let's say gray close the road by placing a tile in the yellow X spot.
How many points do they get? How many points does green get instead?
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 28, 2022, 09:24:44 PM
The completition of one castle will trigger the completition of the second one  :yellow-meeple:
There are many clarifications about such scenarios in https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars) and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition) (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)) see footnotes.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: carca82 on September 29, 2022, 10:11:18 AM
The completition of one castle will trigger the completition of the second one  :yellow-meeple:
There are many clarifications about such scenarios in https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars) and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition) (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)) see footnotes.

Tried to do that but we got lost. A little help?  :green-meeple: :gray-meeple: Gray gets 5 points for the road. Then both gray and green get 5 points because the just finished road is a neighbouring feature of both their castles. But then gray triggers the completion to green AND green triggers the completion to gray? It seems weird.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 29, 2022, 12:14:33 PM
Once a castle is triggered, you takes its meeple off. It can't be triggered twice. So that's 10 points for gray, and 5 for green.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on September 29, 2022, 01:04:35 PM
I love these cases when you have multiple dependencies.  >:D

In this case you hav the following:
1) Road occupied by :gray-meeple: --> castle occupied by :green-meeple: (unidirectional road-to-castle dependency)
2) Road occupied by :green-meeple: --> castle occupied by :green-meeple: (unidirectional road-to-castle dependency)
3) Castle occupied by :green-meeple: <--> castle occupied by :gray-meeple: (bidirectional castle-to-castle dependency)

Due to the circular dependency between the castles, the simplest thing is to evaluate the features by dependency order following the chain reaction, so a castle is evaluated after all the features it depends on are evaluated (even other castles). Any castles with mutual dependencies, will have to be evaluated together after all the features they depend on are evaluated (unless necessary, I won't get here into those cases where some castles have several features triggering them - so they have to choose one for their scoring :o).

In this case, our sequnce of choice will be as follows:
1) The road (worth 5 points)
2) The castles:
    - Each of them will score the same number of points the road is worth (5 points)
    - They both must also score the same number of points (5 points) due to the mutual dependency, which is also correct by default, since they are also triggered by the same road.

Bottomline:
* :gray-meeple: scores 10 points (5 points for the road + 5 points for the castle)
* :green-meeple: scores 5 points for the castle

It may seem a bit cumbersome, but in the end is not that complicated. ;)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 29, 2022, 01:05:55 PM
Once a castle is triggered, you takes its meeple off. It can't be triggered twice. So that's 10 points for gray, and 5 for green.
Well, it will be maybe better to make different example.
Imagine two castles and by placed tile you finish two different features, lets say 2 points road and 5 points road.
Active player will tell, which road is scored first. So if he decided to score 2 tiles road first, castles will scores just 2 points. But if 5 tiles road, castles will score 5 points.
Question is @Meepledrone What if in this situation is none meeples. Can active player decide to score 2 tiles road first?
(Sorry, I have Carc on cabin, so connot create expample)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 29, 2022, 01:09:17 PM
Ok. JCZ helped me
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: corinthiens13 on September 29, 2022, 02:00:21 PM
And now you have the detailed answers  :yellow-meeple:
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on September 29, 2022, 03:07:00 PM
Once a castle is triggered, you takes its meeple off. It can't be triggered twice. So that's 10 points for gray, and 5 for green.
Well, it will be maybe better to make different example.
Imagine two castles and by placed tile you finish two different features, lets say 2 points road and 5 points road.
Active player will tell, which road is scored first. So if he decided to score 2 tiles road first, castles will scores just 2 points. But if 5 tiles road, castles will score 5 points.
Question is @Meepledrone What if in this situation is none meeples. Can active player decide to score 2 tiles road first?
(Sorry, I have Carc on cabin, so connot create expample)

The issue here is that the rules do not cover all the cases:
* If several features trigger the scoring of one castle, the player occupying the castle decides the feature to score points for.
* If several features trigger the scoring of multiple castles owned by different players and the castles have mutual dependencies, it is not clarified who makes the final decision... The active player may be involved or not in the scoring.

JCZ decides to score the interdependent castles for the feature scoring the most points. This is a simple solution that may not be the preferred one for some players if playing with messages and/or robbers (some players may be interested in scoring less points in order to receive a message or to reduce the points stolen by a robber). If not all players agree to score the most points, who is entitled to make the final decision? Nobody knows... :o

Ok. JCZ helped me

Ha ha ha!  :(y) :(y)

(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6093.0;attach=17734)

In this case you have the following:
1) An unoccupied road with 2 tiles ending at a monastery (worth 2 points)
2) An unoccupied road with 3 tiles ending at two villages (worth 3 points)
3) A castle occupied by :yellow-meeple:, triggered by both roads (worth 2 or 3 points depending on its owner)
4) A castle occupied by :blue-meeple:, triggered by the 3-tile road (worth 3 points or whatever points the other castle is worth)
5) Both castles have a circular dependency (both castles should score the same)

Two outcomes are possible in this case:
* Both players score the most points (as in JCZ), the same as the 3-tile road:
   - :blue-meeple: scores 3 points for their castle
   - :yellow-meeple: scores 3 points for their castle
* Both players score the least points (agreed for any reason), the same as the 2-tile road:
   - :blue-meeple: scores 2 points for their castle
   - :yellow-meeple: scores 2 points for their castle

If the players would not reach an agreement (one wants to score 2 points and the other 3 points), who is to entitled to make a decision for them? The active player? This may be an option, but neither the rules nor any clarification up to date cover this case.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on September 29, 2022, 10:45:19 PM
What about this rule?
Quote
If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide what order they are scored. As always, you only score points for the first feature."
I think similar rule is in MINDOK rules.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on September 30, 2022, 11:52:35 PM
The use of "you" in C2 is a rather ambiguous, since readers may understand "you" represents the active player (i.e. the player placing the tile triggering the castle scoring), but the rules are referring to the player scoring for a castle (i.e. the castle owner).:

Quote
* If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide which of them to receive points for. A castle can only get points from one single feature.
* Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points.

C1 is clearer, indicating the decision is made by the castle owner stright away:

Quote
* Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.
* As a town which is converted into a castle is not considered to have been completed, it is possible for two occupied castles to be located next to each other. In this case, when one of the castles score points, it counts as a completed structure for the other, and both receive the same points.

So the active player may not be involved at all in the decision. They issue is I commented earlier is not covered in the rules: What if the a tile placement completes multiple features  triggers the scoring of two castles which may score the same points but the castle owners do not agree on which feature to pick? Who is the referee in this case?
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 22, 2022, 05:37:40 AM
I think that there is a clear misinterpretation of the castle rules here. in my opinion, it is not mandatory that castles score the same number of points in case both castles are triggered by more than one completed feature.

The examples for both C1 and C2 handle examples in which only one castle is triggered by the scoring of multiple features. If there happens to be a second castle in the first castle's area, it is evident that both castles score the same number of points. These are just examples to show what happens if one castle is triggered by the scoring of another castle, and only by that other castle.

But if several castles are triggered individually by multiple scoring events, then each castle owner can choose which scoring feature he wants to take for his castle. In 99% of the cases, both owners will choose the highest score and will score the same number of points. But if you play with expansions like for instance the Messages, it could occur that a castle owner would accept a lower score.

Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 22, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
Yep, only those castles that are mutually depedent will score the same points.

A castle owner may choose the points for their castle among multiple triggering features if there are no other applicable contraints such a mutual dependency between castles. These mutual dependencies will pose a limitation to choose the points to score.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bagge on November 23, 2022, 07:30:09 PM
I have the rules in English and Germany and don't literally read that 2 Castles next to each other HAVE to score the same points (they mention it more as example where they probably assume there is only 1 other completed feature triggering one Castle scoring that triggers the next Castle).
They write that a castle scoring is considered as a scoring feature and as the Castle owner may decide which feature scores his Castle, they could in my opinion have different scoring values.

For the example above from Bumsakalaka,
- The Yellow Castle can choose for 2 or 3 points or the Castle value of the Blue Castle (which would score 3 points as the Yellow Castle didn't decide yet)
- The Blue Castle can choose for 3 points or the castle value chosen by the Blue Castle (so probably 3, but maybe 2)

So for me the question is more, in what order are the Castles scored, but I think when all involved players (hopefully only 2 castles at the same time) make there choice the pther ones can change there mind acordingly to there choice.. maybe do a round (or more when a players Castle is onlty triggered by another player Castle still left from him) starting from the activate player to decide there Castle scoring values.

Anyway, I agree this might be a complicated situation ;)
Practically I think mostly they would agree on the same value
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 24, 2022, 03:58:26 PM
When castles hav a mutual dependencies, you would score all the features they depend on before these castles. Then players may decide what points to score. Normally, they would agree to score points for the feature worth the most points.

Note: When messages or robbers are involved, some players may prefer to score the least points possible. In case of conflict, there is no clarification about who makes the final decisions, but the active player could be an option (although their decision may not be impartial in some cases >:D)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 24, 2022, 10:26:02 PM
I don't understand what you mean by "in case of a conflict".
Each castle owner chooses the points he would like to score for his castle. How can there ever be a conflict?
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 25, 2022, 03:14:40 PM
Two players may not choose the points they would want to score that freely if their castles must score the same points if their owners are not interested in scoring the same number of points (when they have multiple options to choose from).
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 29, 2022, 09:29:16 PM
Castles "must" not score the same number of points. Each castle owner can choose the points he wants to take.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 30, 2022, 04:19:47 AM
If they are mutually dependent, they score the same points as indicated in the rules:

Quote
* Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points. 
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Vital Pluymers on November 30, 2022, 06:18:14 AM
No, I don't agree. You are wrongly interpreting a conclusion of a single example as a rule that would be valid in all circumstances. That is what co-member Bagge also tried to explain and I fully support his interpretation.

The example is only explaining that a scoring castle A located in the fief of castle B is triggering also the scoring of castle B. So, in a case that castle B is not triggered by others scoring events, the conclusion is correct and both castles score the same.

However, in another scenario in which castle B would simultanuously be triggered by other scoring events as well, it is not obligatory that both castles score the same. Both castle owners can choose which points they would like to score.

You are treating a conclusion of one example as a rule valid for all cases, but that is not what is intended here.

Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: NGC 54 on November 30, 2022, 11:35:58 AM
Is HiG willing to help us to convert this {{IconWorld}} footnote (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-20) into an {{IconBook}} footnote?
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on November 30, 2022, 02:20:13 PM
In this case, both players must score the same points for the castles:

(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6093.0;attach=17734)

This is clear in the rules.

This is not the case for all neigboring castles, like in the case below, where Yellow can choose to score for one of the roads or Blue's castle, but Blue can only choose one of the roads. In this case, each castle can score independently, since there is no mutual dependency .

(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6093.0;attach=17931)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 01, 2022, 08:44:29 AM
Haha, JCZ used as images :D Cool
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: joe_abbot on December 11, 2022, 09:28:57 AM
I found this discussion, I hope you can help me. I recreated a game scenario:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pxk82TQk/Screenshot-2022-12-11-18-12-27.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Green is fields, grey is city. Orange is castles, from expansion 8. Stars are meeples on a castle. Circles are normal meeples. Red places the tile at the bottom, closing the city. How many points for each player (red and blue)? We calculated 66 for red and 44 for blue but we're not sure if the two castles on the right interact in some other ways. Thanks.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 11, 2022, 11:11:10 AM
Hi @joe_abbot !!!

Welcome to the forum!!!

The city is worth 22 points (11 tiles x 2 points)

The completion of the city triggers the scoring of the three castles, but Blue's castle on the right will also trigger the scoring of Red's castle on the right too. This tuns out irrelevant, since the city is the only feature being completed affecting the castles directly and indirectly (through another castle), so all of them will score the same points.

Therefore, as you said:
- Blue will score 44 points (22 points for the city + 22 points for the castle)
- Red will score 66 points (22 points for the city + 22 points for the castle on the left + 22 points for the castle on the right)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: joe_abbot on December 11, 2022, 01:52:26 PM
Thank you. So, just to be sure, the two scenarios in this pic produce exactly the same amount of points (66 vs 44)?

(https://i.postimg.cc/6pHyjhqW/Screenshot-2022-12-11-18-12-27.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 11, 2022, 02:41:19 PM
Yes, the scoring is the same in both scenarios. In Scenario B, Red's castle on the right triggers the scoring of the Blue's castle and the outcome is the same.

EDIT: Ooops! Wrong answer... See below.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 12, 2022, 07:28:58 AM
Yes, the scoring is the same in both scenarios. In Scenario B, Red's castle on the right triggers the scoring of the Blue's castle and the outcome is the same.
I don't agree.
In scenario B where blue castle is on right, this blue castle will not be scored. Because in its vicinity is NONE feature!

Blue castle will be scored only in scenario A and there is up to players, if they'll score red castle or city, because both features are in vicinity of blue castle.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 12, 2022, 08:37:37 AM
Yes, the scoring is the same in both scenarios. In Scenario B, Red's castle on the right triggers the scoring of the Blue's castle and the outcome is the same.
I don't agree.
In scenario B where blue castle is on right, this blue castle will not be scored. Because in its vicinity is NONE feature!

Blue castle will be scored only in scenario A and there is up to players, if they'll score red castle or city, because both features are in vicinity of blue castle.

Oops! Sorry, I got the position of th castles wrong. You are right.

Red's castle on the right cannot trigger the scoring of Blue's castle. The former is not overlapping the fief of the latter.
It is the other way round: Blue's castle is the one overlapping th fief of Red's castle.

So for Scenario B:
- Blue will score 22 points for the city
- Red will score 66 points (22 points for the city + 22 points for the castle on the left + 22 points for the castle on the right)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: joe_abbot on December 13, 2022, 11:25:16 AM
I don't understand. Why don't the two castles overlap? Aren't the tiles marked in yellow shared between the red and blue castles on the right?

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHk3XM2B/Screenshot-2022-12-11-18-12-27.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Snearone on December 13, 2022, 11:57:01 AM
I don't understand. Why don't the two castles overlap? Aren't the tiles marked in yellow shared between the red and blue castles on the right?

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHk3XM2B/Screenshot-2022-12-11-18-12-27.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The areas do overlap, but in this case the red castle could get points from a blue castle, but not the other way arround.

For blue castle, to get points from that city, and not directly, but throught that red castle it would need to be placed like that:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM0ngSn8/C.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Meepledrone on December 13, 2022, 12:28:50 PM
A castle triggers the scoring of another when the the castle overlaps the other castle fief (one of the 6 spaces in the vicinity of a castle). The overlapping of two castle fiefs is not always reason enough.

Please check this footnote on WICA for a detailed example:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-20 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-20)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: joe_abbot on December 14, 2022, 11:02:11 AM
Please check this footnote on WICA for a detailed example:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-20 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-20)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/6/66/Bridges_Castles_Bazaars_C2_Castle_Overlaping.png)
Quote
"The blue castle overlaps the red castle fief but not vice versa"
I don't understand, how can red not overlap blue if blue overlaps red? Two tiles are always shared, aren't they? I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 14, 2022, 11:16:59 AM
Quote
"The blue castle overlaps the red castle fief but not vice versa"
I don't understand, how can red not overlap blue if blue overlaps red? Two tiles are always shared, aren't they? I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here.
No. It's not.
Every Castle has it's own "radius" and there can have areas which are in "vicinity" of both castles, and there are also places which are on control of one castle and not of second one.

As vicinity of Castle is not "square", so areas depends of orientation of castle. And red and blue have different orientations.

Try to look, from point of view of blue which areas he controls. Do you see on those areas red castle?
So if red castle scores, blue will not score in the chain, because it is not in his vicinity.

Issue is, that trigger of scoring is not vicinity of scored feature (in this situation, red castle), but it's in other view.
If in castle vicinity is something scored, it triggers scoring of the castle.
(again, from scoring feature to score of the castle, and not from score a castle to score a feature in vicinity)
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Challa007 on December 14, 2022, 11:18:46 AM
@joe_abbot :forget the word "overlap" because it induces into error.

Look at it this way:
A castle scoring can only be triggered, if there is a feature finished in the 6 tiles zone.

Now look a the blue 6 tile zone. There is no feature there. So the blue castle cannot be triggered...
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: corinthiens13 on December 14, 2022, 12:28:34 PM
And the castle itself is considered to be on two tiles only, not on 6.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 14, 2022, 12:41:47 PM
And the castle itself is considered to be on two tiles only, not on 6.

Not really true :D

Quote
The dragon cannot eat the following figures since they are not placed on a particular tile:
* A meeple in a castle (Exp. 8 - Bridges, Castles and Bazaars): meeple placed across the two tiles

So castle is not on tiles, castle is token placed across the two tiles. So none of tiles represent castle as a feature.
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: corinthiens13 on December 14, 2022, 12:48:27 PM
Indeed, but for the case discussed above you consider the two tiles on which the castle is laid on. If one of the two tiles is in the other castle's fief, then the castle is in its fief. I was trying to explain with more simplicity  :yellow-meeple:
Title: Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
Post by: Bumsakalaka on December 14, 2022, 01:09:27 PM
Indeed, but for the case discussed above you consider the two tiles on which the castle is laid on. If one of the two tiles is in the other castle's fief, then the castle is in its fief. I was trying to explain with more simplicity  :yellow-meeple:

I wanted to be "clear" >:D