Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Meepledrone on August 17, 2021, 06:50:08 AM
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In recent days we got the following clarifications by email from Christwart Conrad, the creator of Carcassonne expansions such as Cathars / Siege / Besiegers, The Tunnel or The Plague.
Following Kettlefish's tradition...
Question in BLUE
Answer in GREEN
Still open in RED
My own comments in MAROON
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The Tunnel
[Q1] We would like to verify if the road ending at the group of houses splits the field at the top or not. In other words, does this tile have 3 or 4 fields?
[A1] This tile has 3 fields. See also:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1001627/tunnels-and-fields (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1001627/tunnels-and-fields)
The link to BGG indicated includes a thread discussing the number of fields featured on each tile of the expansion. The author confirmed that in this case the RRRR tile has only 3 fields.
A clarification section covering these tiles has been added to WICA:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tunnel_(1st_edition)#Additional_Clarifications (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tunnel_(1st_edition)#Additional_Clarifications)
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The Plague (part 1)
[Q2.1] Is any meeple in play allowed to take flight from the plague or only those on features affected by the plague?
[A2.1] Any.
At any point during his turn a player may move one of their meeples any number of tiles orthogonally within the same feature, provided they do not pass pass through or land on a tile with an active Outbreak or a Flea.
See: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/696667/rules-bsw-site-copied-plain-text (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/696667/rules-bsw-site-copied-plain-text)
So according to the rules, quoted above, there is no restriction about what meeples can take flight from the plague (for example, only those on features already affected by the plague). Therefore, when an outbreak is active, any meeple in the playing area can take flight from the plague.
The link to BGG provided by the author includes a great concise summary of the The Plague rules.
[Q2.2] We assume a meeple may take flight from the plague at any time during your turn, since the rules do not specify a particular moment. If this action is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
[A2.2] No, it shouldn't. In order to avoid rules conflicts, spreading the plague [at any time] is not allowed before you know you didn't draw a plague source tile [and the tile drawn has a valid placement]. The rule allowing you to spread the plague at any time during your turn wouldn't make sense [if it could generate conflicts], so I'd skip this possibility explicitly.
The author then confirms that a player can spread the plague at any time during their turn but once the tile is placed, so there is no room for conflict if the tile drawn and placed is a plague source.
EDIT: Added some comments and updated wording to clarify the context for answer A2.2.
NOTE: More questions about The Plague answered answered in the following post below:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg79066#msg79066 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg79066#msg79066)
NOTE 2: Summary diagrams for the action in The Plague available here:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg87346#msg87346 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg87346#msg87346)
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Ooh, Q1 for the plague makes great opportunities with the wagon :yellow-meeple:
The rule allowing you to spread the plague at any time during your turn wouldn't make sense, so I'd skip this possibility explicitly.
So both moving a meeple and spreading the plague are now "Not anytime during our turn"?
When do we perform those actions then? Directly after drawing a tile? Or anytime but not before drawing a tile? ???
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The "any time during your turn" is still valid. The only additional restriction is "starting when"... So you cannot perform two incompatible actions on the same turn: spreading the plague and placing a source tile.
You can only spread the plague once you know the tile you have drawn and there is a valid placement for it. So there is no turning back for the tile and therefore no possible conflict.
So, you can move a flea at any time during your turn after you have placed your tile.
In other words, do it any time during your turn after placing your tile in Step 1C in 1. Placing a tile.
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Ok, thanks for those clarifications :yellow-meeple:
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No problem!
So no issues for the wagon... Only adding a restriction to the "at any time" part that could generate conflicts.
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I wasn't referring to any issue with the wagon.
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:
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So we agree. I was thinking this was what you had in mind:
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:
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So I see the answers no one thought we would ever get are here after all. Granted, they weren't really needed, because we already pretty confidently suspected the correct answers, but it is nice to have them anyway.
Also I believe there is a mistake here:
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify when in your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
The beginning should say "when in turn you can spread the plague" shouldn't it? That is what the question was about.
I wasn't referring to any issue with the wagon.
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:
This wouldn't actually introduce any new wagon movement opportunities because you stay within the same feature so all connected features remain the same also. Unless you mean C2 wagon, in which case yes. You probably meant C2 wagon rules, correct?
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So I see the answers no one thought we would ever get are here after all. Granted, they weren't really needed, because we already pretty confidently suspected the correct answers, but it is nice to have them anyway.
Yep. But it is great to get confirmations from the author... And more to come soon!
Also I believe there is a mistake here:
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify when in your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
The beginning should say "when in turn you can spread the plague" shouldn't it? That is what the question was about.
I could also reword it as follows:
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify at what point during your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
Do you find it easier to read?
I wasn't referring to any issue with the wagon.
I was only mentioning that beeing able to move (flee the plague) any meeple, even on features not currently affected by the plague empowers the use of the wagon by adding more opportunities to move it by fleeing the plague and place it next to an interesting incomplete feature :yellow-meeple:
This wouldn't actually introduce any new wagon movement opportunities because you stay within the same feature so all connected features remain the same also. Unless you mean C2 wagon, in which case yes. You probably meant C2 wagon rules, correct?
Yep. He was talking about moving the wagon to a tile adjacent to feature of interest it could occupy after scoring the current one (C2 rules of course).
I also see another opportunity: moving a flea right before you move your wagon so you clear its way to its new destination.
BTW, speaking of the devial, here you are a comparison of the wagon rules I just added to WICA:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Wagon_Movement_Rules_Change (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Wagon_Movement_Rules_Change)
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I could also reword it as follows:
Quote
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify at what point during your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
No, no that is not the problem. I mean this particular piece of conversation discusses when during players turn can the plague be spread by placing a flea token and wether a conflicts may arise with another rule. But the beginning of your question make it seem as if the question was about a meeple taking flight which was already answered in the previous answer.
So the sentence should read: "The rules do not specify at what point during their turn, can the player place a flea token...".
Also I see the new answers were added to wica, but one of the red questions (12) remain despite being answered (but I am sure you're onto it).
There is one more thing I noticed could use a small clarification:
The follower may not take flight to or over a tile with a flea token (either active or latent), nor to a tile with an active Outbreak.
Does this mean that I can take a flight over a tile with an active outbreak as long as I end up on a legal tile? That would seem to slightly go against the theme of the expansion. Here is an illustration of what the current formulation would imply. (red arrows indicate invalid flight; blue valid):
https://ibb.co/2vh0Nc5
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I could also reword it as follows:
Quote
[Q2.2] The rules do not specify at what point during your turn one of your meeples can take flight from the plague, so we assume this action could happen at any time. If it is performed before knowing the tile you drew, you could run into a rules conflict, since you could move a flea token before knowing you will place a plague source on the same turn. Should this be allowed anyway?
No, no that is not the problem. I mean this particular piece of conversation discusses when during players turn can the plague be spread by placing a flea token and wether a conflicts may arise with another rule. But the beginning of your question make it seem as if the question was about a meeple taking flight which was already answered in the previous answer.
So the sentence should read: "The rules do not specify at what point during their turn, can the player place a flea token...".
The context in this question is quite verbose indeed. You may suggest a better wording.
Also I see the new answers were added to wica, but one of the red questions (12) remain despite being answered (but I am sure you're onto it).
I'm still discussing the answers for address the open issues in footnotes 9 and 12. So far I got a partial answer that indicates that the builder and the pig can flee the plague.
So this would mean that they are affected by the plague and the can take flight form it the same as meeples. Trying to cover the same issue for the shepherd too.
There is one more thing I noticed could use a small clarification:
The follower may not take flight to or over a tile with a flea token (either active or latent), nor to a tile with an active Outbreak.
Does this mean that I can take a flight over a tile with an active outbreak as long as I end up on a legal tile? That would seem to slightly go against the theme of the expansion. Here is an illustration of what the current formulation would imply. (red arrows indicate invalid flight; blue valid):
https://ibb.co/2vh0Nc5
Very interesting point!
I revisited the original rules in German and English and compared them with the wording on this page. It turns out there is a slight mistranslation here coming from the CAR v7.4. :o
The original rules in English by spielbox read as follows:
Players may not flee onto or across a tile containing a Flea (whether active or inactive) or an active Outbreak (number
with rat).
Error corrected. Thank you for pointing this out!!!
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The context in this question is quite verbose indeed. You may suggest a better wording.
The wording is good, I just feel like beginning part of the question was switched around? The question is regarding timing of flea placement, but the first sentence asks about meeple flight?
I'm still discussing the answers for address the open issues in footnotes 9 and 12. So far I got a partial answer that indicates that the builder and the pig can flee the plague.
So this would mean that they are affected by the plague and the can take flight form it the same as meeples. Trying to cover the same issue for the shepherd too.
Interesting. Special figures taking flight is unexpected, but useful outcome! So I suppose the Shepherd would flee with his flock?
Error corrected. Thank you for pointing this out!!!
No problem. I have been reading that sentence for years and only now noticed this discrepancy :o
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If the plague do also affect special figures, I hope it affects the same figures than the dragon. It would be logical (any flesh-made figure may become ill) and it would avoid to create another list of affected figures :yellow-meeple:
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The context in this question is quite verbose indeed. You may suggest a better wording.
The wording is good, I just feel like beginning part of the question was switched around? The question is regarding timing of flea placement, but the first sentence asks about meeple flight?
I reviewed the wording of Q2.2 above. Hope it is now more direct and clear.
I'm still discussing the answers for address the open issues in footnotes 9 and 12. So far I got a partial answer that indicates that the builder and the pig can flee the plague.
So this would mean that they are affected by the plague and the can take flight form it the same as meeples. Trying to cover the same issue for the shepherd too.
Interesting. Special figures taking flight is unexpected, but useful outcome! So I suppose the Shepherd would flee with his flock?
This is an ongoing proceess. ;)
The author hadn't played The Plague with Exp. 2 until yesterday, so he is also learning about the implications of The Plague. No other expansions are covered either because he didn't know anything but the base game as far as I can tell from his questions.
This is very interesting, since it seems HiG commissions expansions to third parties but they only have to address the base game.
So this is what happens when a random guy asks about the interactions of the expansions. It's becoming very interesting journey for me.
Error corrected. Thank you for pointing this out!!!
No problem. I have been reading that sentence for years and only now noticed this discrepancy :o
Same here! :o
The same happened to me with this section here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Plague_(1st_edition)#Eradicating_further_Outbreaks (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Plague_(1st_edition)#Eradicating_further_Outbreaks)
What do make out of this paragraph?
Eradicating further Outbreaks
The next Outbreak (and always the token with the lowest number currently in play) is only eradicated when there are no more latent flea tokens which could be moved at the start of a player's turn.
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If the plague do also affect special figures, I hope it affects the same figures than the dragon. It would be logical (any flesh-made figure may become ill) and it would avoid to create another list of affected figures :yellow-meeple:
I'm suggesting Mr. Conrad to use the dragon as an reference all the time.
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The Plague (part 2)
[Q2.3] Does the plague affect special figures such as the builder, the pig and the shepherd? Are they removed if a flea token is placed on the tile they occupy? Are these figures allowed to take flight from the plague as well?
[A2.3] Special figures such as the builder, the pig and the shepherd are affected by the plague. If a flea token is placed on a tile with one of your special figures, the figure will be returned to your supply.
Your builder and your pig will also returned to your supply if a flea token removes your last meeple on the same feature.
Special figures like the builder, the pig and the shepherd may also take flight from the plague instead of a meeple. Meeples and special figures may share the same feature on a tile when taking flight.
When the shepherd takes flight from the plague, its flock of sheep should move along with it.
[Q2.4] What happens if you eradicate the oldest outbreak at the beginning of your turn and no latent fleas resulted in the process?
[A2.4] After eradicating an outbreak, an additional outbreak (and always the token with the lowest number currently in play) may be eradicated if there are no latent flea tokens which could be moved at the start of a player's turn, but only if more than one outbreak is still active.
This means that the outbreak eradication process should be repeated one outbreak at a time (starting always with the oldest one still active) until at least one latent flea is generated. This iterative process will be interrupted if there is only one active outbreak left. This is the special case defined in the rules, where all the 18 fleas are active and connected to the same outbreak.
As a result, when spreading the plague, a player will either:
* Place a flea token from the supply, if available; OR
* Move an flea token in latent state (the outbreak eradication process will ensure there is at least one available when possible); OR
* Move an active flea token if and only if all the flea tokens are active and connected to the same outbreak.
[Q2.5] How does the plague behave in a double turn granted by the builder?
[A2.5] During a double turn, you only spread the plague once (at most). If one of the tiles is an outbreak but not the other one, yo do it too. You may also take flight from the plague only once. You only eradicate the plague once at the beginning of the turn.
During a double turn you perform the actions associated with the plague as follows:
* You spread the plague once at most (it can only happen at any time after placing a tile in any part of the double turn, if the tile wasn't a plague source)
* You may take flight from the plague only once (at any time during the double turn)
* You may eradicate outbreaks once at the beginning of your turn (this guarantees there will always be an inactive flea token to move unless it is the special case scenario).
When spreading the plague, the following scenarios may happen, depending on the tiles placed:
- 1st tile: plague source (you cannot spread the plague on the first part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: plague source (you cannot spread the plague on the second part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: non-plague tile + you spread the plague (mandatory)
- 1st tile: non-plague tile + you decide to spread the plague
- 2nd tile: any (you do nothing, you already spread the plague on the first part of your turn)
- 1st tile: non-plague tile + you decide to not spread the plague yet (you wait until the second part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: plague source (you cannot spread the plague on the second part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: non-plague tile + you spread the plague (mandatory)
NOTE: Summary diagrams for the action in The Plague available here:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg87346#msg87346 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5432.msg87346#msg87346)
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Very interesting, thanks :yellow-meeple:
What about messenger and saint-nicolas double turns? And... 20 anniversary?
I guess, same for tower buyback and tunnel token placement, it may be repeated with messenger and Saint-Nicholas turns since they are "full" turns, but not with builder and 20 anniversary?
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Oh, and does the plague also affect neutral figures (all made of flesh), or only player's figures?
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Very interesting, thanks :yellow-meeple:
What about messenger and saint-nicolas double turns? And... 20 anniversary?
I guess, same for tower buyback and tunnel token placement, it may be repeated with messenger and Saint-Nicholas turns since they are "full" turns, but not with builder and 20 anniversary?
No problem! ;D
The double turn granted by the builder is a special case and therefore the additional complexity (it is one single turn with two tile placements). All other extra turns are full normal turns (Messenger, Saint Nicholas Scoring Board, 20th Anniversary, nested bazaar round turns)
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Oh, and does the plague also affect neutral figures (all made of flesh), or only player's figures?
Let's see when we get there...
Mr. Conrad is also the author of Mage & Witch, for example... but I don't think he thought through any interactions beyond the base game... And Mage & Witch is the origin of many issues as we know.
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And Mage & Witch is a origin of many issues as we know.
Such as?
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And Mage & Witch is a origin of many issues as we know.
Such as?
For example when is counted witch after or before German. Castle Bonuses
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Check this post... and you'll see how Mage & Witch made the scoring of roads and cities something a bit complex:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4641.msg68340#msg68340 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4641.msg68340#msg68340)
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Check this post... and you'll see how Mage & Witch made the scoring of roads and cities something a bit complex:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4641.msg68340#msg68340 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4641.msg68340#msg68340)
Indeed. We never play this combination of minis as prevention of family drama :)
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The Plague - Turn sequence Diagrams
This topic invited me to revisit the rules of The Plague and its clarifications. I put together the following images in order to see how the actions described in the rules match the turn sequence. I came across some surprises in the process...
These diagrams are an updated version of the ones I posted here previously, which are now obsolete after some comments from Christwart Conrad, the author of this official expansion:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4780.msg70156#msg70156 (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4780.msg70156#msg70156)
Note: The images can be clicked to display them full size.
Here you can find how actions are performed during the turn sequence. Actions like adding a plague source tile (adding an outbreak) or eradicating an outbreak are located at specific points of the turn sequence. However, spreading the plague or fleeing the plague happen at the active player's discretion.
(https://imgur.com/hpjmf3l.png)
Please also find some comments below connected to clarifications provided by the expansion's author to formerly open issues:
I) Spreading the plague
You cannot spread the plague until you know you are not placing a plague source tile in phase 1. Placing a tile. At this point, if spreading the plague is allowed, you will be able to decide when. Depending on the context, you may decide to do it:
- Right after placing a tile in phase 1. Placing a tile: In this case, it may be interesting to move a flea away from the area you may be extending with your tile.
- At the beginning of phase 2. Placing a meeple: In this case, it may be interesting to place a flea to vacate a feature the player may control and possibly score this turn. You may also find interesting to remove one of your meeples or special figures to place it during this turn: a possible better location, the figure may be trapped on an incomplete feature…
- At the end of phase 2. Placing a meeple: In this case, it may be interesting to remove a meeple or special figure from a feature about to be scored.
- At the end of phase 3. Scoring a feature: In this case, it may be interesting to remove a meeple or special figure for future purposes, for example, a wagon that just moved, a trapped meeple…
II) Spreading the plague in a double turn
Spreading the plague depends on the tiles placed. Several scenarios may show up during a double turn:
- 1st tile: plague source (you cannot spread the plague on the first part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: plague source (you cannot spread the plague on the second part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: non-plague tile + you spread the plague (mandatory)
- 1st tile: non-plague tile + you decide to spread the plague
- 2nd tile: any (you do nothing, you already spread the plague on the first part of your turn)
- 1st tile: non-plague tile + you decide to not spread the plague yet (you wait until the second part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: plague source (you cannot spread the plague on the second part of your turn)
- 2nd tile: non-plague tile + you spread the plague (mandatory)
III) Fleeing the plague
As confirmed by Christwart Conrad (8/2021):
- The plague affects special figures placed on a tile (builder, pig and shepherd along with sheep tokens).
- A player may choose one meeple or special figure placed on a tile to flee the plague. The sheep tokens move along with their shepherd.
Additionally, you can find next three flowcharts that put together the logic of three more complex actions of the expansion, that you can find scattered throughout the rules:
(A) Adding an outbreak, covering all the actions related to placing a plague source tile and possibly merging active areas. It also covers the exception (special case) when adding an outbreak turns the previous one inactive if it had all the available fleas.
(https://imgur.com/Xm9aoMf.png)
Notes:
* 1. Place a new outbreak: This step is very straight forward.
* 2A. Eradicate previous outbreak (exception): If the new outbreak is isolated from the new one and it grouped all the 18 fleas, the rules instruct you to turn this previous outbreak inactive along with its fleas as a special case.
* 2B. Manage merged regions: As an alternative to the previous case, you may find out that the new outbreak tile may merge two or more plague regions in different states, so you will have to deal with them:
- Active regions with a previous active outbreak: You will need to keep active only the newest outbreak and turn any disconnected fleas to latent state.
- Inactive regions with latent fleas : You vill need to turn these fleas to active state.
(B) Spreading the plague, covering all the action associated with choosing and placing a flea, removing any cut-off regions caused when moving a flea token on the board and merging active areas.
(https://imgur.com/aIGmezS.png)
Notes:
* 1. Place new flea token: If there is room for a flea token to be placed, you'll have to choose the source of the flea token to place:
- 1. Pick a flea token from the supply, if any
- 2. Otherwise, you move a latent flea taken placed on the board
- 3. Finally, if only active flea tokens are available, move one of them
* 2. Manage cut-off active flea regions: If a latent or an active flea token was moved, any disconnected active flea region with no active outbreak will have to be turned inactive.
* 3. Manage merged regions: Same case as with the addition of a new outbreak above, you may find out that the newly placed flea token may merge two or more plague regions in different states, so you will have to deal with them:
- Active regions with a previous active outbreak: You will need to keep active only the newest outbreak and turn any disconnected fleas to latent state.
- Inactive regions with latent fleas : You vill need to turn these fleas to active state.
(C) Eradicating an outbreak, covering the case dealing with the removal of the oldest active outbreaks when there are several active outbreaks and all the 18 flea tokens are active on the board.
(https://imgur.com/Ybs7yTU.png)
Notes:
* 1. Eradicate oldest outbreaks: Nothing will happen if all the active fleas are connected to one active outbreak. This action is only possible if there are several active outbreaks with active flea tokens. You just turn over the oldest active outbreak and all its connected fleas, if any, until you generate some latent fleas. You may need to repeat action if the oldest outbreak didn't produce any effect.
Let me know if this exercise helped you or need some additional clarifications.
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This post reminded me why I never played with this expansion :)
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Ha ha ha! This is just an aid to put together all the actions scaterred through the rules. Note that the author does not follow the usual turn sequence of Carcassonne, what makes things a bit more difficult to follow and can lead to certain conflicts. After perusing the rules, I tried to address these conflicts and ask the author, which led to updated version of the diagrams included above.
Maybe they seem somewhat cumbersome, but they turn out to be as complicated as I expected initially. ;D
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This post reminded me why I never played with this expansion :)
Come on, Plague is nowhere as confusing as its reputation would have you believe, it's actually quite a simple expansion. I play with it often and it is easily one of th best expansions ever made for Carcassonne. I like all of Carcassonne material at the end of the day, but I have to admit there are several expansions which fail at fulfilling their own intended purpose. The Plague is not one of them.
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Interesting fan expansion similar and actual to plague is COVID 19 which required just one tile and some printed stuff.
Check https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/COVID-19_(Fan_Expansion)
Rules are simple and can be used for nice strategy.
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