Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Hounk on March 13, 2017, 07:37:14 AM
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Does anybody know, if the rules for the wagon have been changed with this edition. Cron from Hunter & Cron seems pretty sure, that the wagon can now move from one object to another one without road connection, as long as it moves to an adjacent tile.
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Does anybody know, if the rules for the wagon have been changed with this edition. Cron from Hunter & Cron seems pretty sure, that the wagon can now move from one object to another one without road connection, as long as it moves to an adjacent tile.
Yeah....unfortunately (my opininon) HiG have changed the rules, there was a heavy discussion about this at CarcF:
https://carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=292&t=3406 (https://carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=292&t=3406)
https://carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=292&t=3662 (https://carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=292&t=3662)
The most interesting thing is, that during the discussion has come out that probably the old rule was never interpreted correctly for years, this means maybe we have played the wagon for years wrong..... :-\
Please read the next post from kettlefish for clarification.
Greetings,
BigBoss
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BigBoss,
you trust PresetM with his own opinion. But PresetM didn't ever talked with the people from HiG directly about the rule for the wagon.
I've talked with the HiG-team over many years now.
In October 2016 and again in December 2016 I've talked directly with Moritz Brunnhofer, one of the managers of HiG.
The wagon rule for the classical Edition is different than the rule in the New Edition.
The change of the wagon rule for the New Edition is only because the wagon will get more often the possibility to use the special wagon rule than the rule from the classical Edition and it might be easier to understand the wagon rule for new Carcassonne players.
But as I've explained in the CarcF forum - we have two different rules for the wagon now.
If someone has question for the wagon rule - it is important now - to tell which edition they have.
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But as I've explained in the CarcF forum - we have two different rules for the wagon now.
If someone has question for the wagon rule - it is important now - to tell which edition they have.
Is this the case? Personally, I tend to keep the old rules, because they seem to make more sense to me. (I dislike the idea of a wagon "jumping" over a field into a city.) But officially, because they want to keep both versions compatible, I would assume, they want to keep all versions on the same rule set? Or else, what rules people should play with, who have old version of base game and new version of A&M (or vice versa)? There had been revised rules in several regards (most notably the field scoring) over the years, not attached to any graphical mutilation, and while some people probably always preferred to stay with the old rules, the official wording was always, that the new rules were the relevant. I also wonder, how the CAR should handle this mess, not that I assume, anybody at HiG would care about that.
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Can someone explain it? or translate it?
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I have posted some pictures which shows the difference in the wagon rule at CarcF.
The classical edition - CC I or Carc I - uses the term move the wagon to an unfinished and not occupied feature which is directly connected to the just finished feature where the wagon has been originally placed.
The new edition - CC II or Carc II - uses the term move the wagon to an unfinished and not occupied feature which is onto one of the ( 8 ) surrounding tiles where the wagon is placed on the tile which belonges to the just finished feature.
You can say follows:
in the past = CC I: the wagon was driving through the landscape - sometimes the drive was over several landscape tiles
and now = CC II : the wagon is jumping from one tile to one of the surrounding tiles - only one landscape weight jump.
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The new edition - CC II or Carc II - uses the term move the wagon to an unfinished and not occupied feature which is onto one of the ( 8 ) surrounding tiles where the wagon is placed on the tile which belonges to the just finished feature.
According to the example sheets at Carcassone-Forum, the wagon is actually permitted to move to one of 9 tiles: the 8 surrounding tiles plus the centre one, where he was initially placed.
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I think, the new wagon rule will make drawing several cloisters more powerful. Because you can build up a cloister zone with them, without having to deploy several meeples, risking them to be trapped. That is, unless you play with magic portal.
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Hounk,
I agree with your cloister observation. The main problem with the old wagon rule was it could reach only 2 of the cloisters from the base game. This new rule probably will allow for an area of cloisters, but I can see multiple player wagons going in between. I imagine wagon trapping will be more important.
The old wagon rule added an importance to roads. This rule basically does away with that.
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I had a couple of clarifications for the new Wagons, which I could not decipher from the German rules:
Now the Wagon is able to move to any available feature in an adjacent tile, Can the Wagon:
- move into magic portals and teleport to an empty feature?
- move into flyer mounds and use the flyer die to move?
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I had a couple of clarifications for the new Wagons, which I could not decipher from the German rules:
Now the Wagon is able to move to any available feature in an adjacent tile, Can the Wagon:
- move into magic portals and teleport to an empty feature?
- move into flyer mounds and use the flyer die to move?
The Swedish rules of the new Abbey and Mayor has rule clarifications for playing with other expansions:
The mayor and the wagon
Expansion 3: Both figures kan use the magic portals. The figures may only be placed in areas according to the default rules of magic portals.
Expansion 4: Both figures kan be captured by the tower. Either the wagon or the mayor cannot be part of the tower (I e placed on top of the tower).
Expansion 6: Both figures can be placed in the city Carcassonne though with certain restrictions. The mayor can only be placed in "castle Carcassonne". The wagon can be placed in any of the city's features except "the market".
Expansion 8: Both figures can be placed in castle (2 city tile completion token). When a scoring is made the mayor gives zero points for there are no shields in the castle token.
In CAR 7.4 regarding to wagon and flyer:
On page 57
137 Official status: The mayor and wagon are followers, subject to the usual rules of deployment and affecting the majority. The barn is a special figure, not a follower.
On page 142
378 Any follower can be a flier, as the flying machine feature is not the final resting place for the follower. However, the final landing point must still be a valid feature for that follower (such as the mayor in a city).
So the wagon is considered a follower and thus it can be used as flyer as always.
Hope this helps!
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Morning Paul, I don't think you understood.
The Rules of the Wagon have changed. The Wagon can now move to a feature on an adjacent tile, when it's original feature is completed.
My question is can it move to the locations listed.
The rules you've summarized are referring to how the wagon can be used when it is initially placed. Previously the wagon could only move to a city or a road or a cloister connected to the feature that was completed; this is no longer the case.
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I had a couple of clarifications for the new Wagons, which I could not decipher from the German rules:
Now the Wagon is able to move to any available feature in an adjacent tile, Can the Wagon:
- move into magic portals and teleport to an empty feature?
- move into flyer mounds and use the flyer die to move?
I don't see why not. Are these two things both true?
1. If you draw a magic portal or flier tile and place it, you can use the wagon on either of these two features.
2. Upon completion of a feature with the wagon, the wagon can move to an adjacent tile and act as though that tile was just placed, claiming an unclaimed feature on that tile.
If these are both true, then I don't see any reason why a wagon can't use a magic portal or the flier mechanism upon moving.
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The revised rules and interactions for the expansions weren't so clear. I suppose it is not clear if the magic portal (and flyer mound) can only be used when the tile is placed, and not on subsequent turns. For example: Can a flyer fly to another flyer mound and relaunch, can a flyer land on a magic portal and make use of it. I think the flyer moving onto an existing tile is similar to the wagon moving to a new tile. But one set of rules is v1 so should not clutter the v2 mindset; so it is hard to make an assumption.
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Aha! Missed that part.
The new rulebook, again Swedish, clearly states yes:
After the feature the wagon is on is completed, it can move to an unfinished feature on the same tile or any of the 8 tiles surrounding it.
I'm trying to attach an image but it's too big, even if scaled to ridiculous size.
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My German is very poor but I believe it is quite clear from this webpage:
http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/carcassonne/erweiterungen/abtei-und-buergermeister/
(FAQ tab at the bottom)
Wohin darf der Wagen?/ Was ist ein angrenzendes Gebiet?
Der Wagen darf in ein angrenzendes Gebiet.
Ein angrenzendes Gebiet ist ein Gebiet (Straße, Stadt, Kloster) welches visuell an ein anderes Gebiet angrenzt.
Dies beinhaltet unter anderem Straßen, die Stadtmauern berühren,
Brücken, die andere Gebiete überlagern und
Städte, deren Stadtmauern sich berühren.
"Straße, Stadt, Kloster" would mean ONLY road, city or monastery. Let me know if I am missing something.
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Aha! Missed that part.
The new rulebook, again Swedish, clearly states yes:
After the feature the wagon is on is completed, it can move to an unfinished feature on the same tile or any of the 8 tiles surrounding it.
I'm trying to attach an image but it's too big, even if scaled to ridiculous size.
Thanks Paul. Indeed it is very clear.
"ledigt element (väg, stad, eller kloster/abbedi)" It says that an unoccupied feature can only be a road, city or monastery/abbey. Fields are therefore excluded, as well as other features (tower base, magic portal, etc.)
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But, it says 'element' then lists some elements in brackets as an example, not a definitive list. This would mean Wagons cannot move onto Monasteries when playing with that expansion.
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But, it says 'element' then lists some elements in brackets as an example, not a definitive list. This would mean Wagons cannot move onto Monasteries when playing with that expansion.
It is not a list of examples, it is a definitive list on where it can be moved. Hence any other location is prohibited as Jéré mentioned.
That being said it should be able to move to these mini expansions and promos that are not mentioned, for the rules only implies the larger expansions so far.
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Then the list should not have been included in brackets. Brackets are used to include information that is not essential to the main point. But in this case it is!
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I don't understand it. If you draw a tile with a magic portal on it, can a wagon be placed from your supply onto that magic portal?
If yes, then the wagon should be able to be placed on a magic portal after moving too.
If no, then the wagon shouldn't be able to be placed onto a magic portal after moving either.
That's just common sense, isn't it?
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I don't understand it. If you draw a tile with a magic portal on it, can a wagon be placed from your supply onto that magic portal?
If yes, then the wagon should be able to be placed on a magic portal after moving too.
If no, then the wagon shouldn't be able to be placed onto a magic portal after moving either.
That's just common sense, isn't it?
I certainly can understand the confusion.
But, the portal is only used when placing the tile with the portal, hence the allowance of use a wagon from the stash, not when the wagon completes a feature.
This is not written clearly, but if you read all the rules and footnotes in CAR 7.4 you get the whole picture when bits and pieces states it's only used when placing the tile with the portal and that it is considered a claimed feature after the that turn. As scoring is done last, you can't move the wagon afterwards to the portal.
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I'm not sure a footnote from the v1CAR is going to be valid though, we've already determined that v2 is required. The published rules have been rewritten and will have to be re-verified for CARv2.
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I had a couple of clarifications for the new Wagons, which I could not decipher from the German rules:
Now the Wagon is able to move to any available feature in an adjacent tile, Can the Wagon:
- move into magic portals and teleport to an empty feature?
- move into flyer mounds and use the flyer die to move?
My personal feeling is that Magic Portals and Flyer Mounds are "completed" during the turn in which they are played, therefore the wagon is not able to use them when moving from a "completed" feature to a new feature, since it can only move to "uncompleted" features, but the rules definitely are not clear on this. It all depends on if HIG rules that magic portals are already "completed" or not. If not, then you could definitely do what you suggest. If yes, then you can't.
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Magic portal can't be completed or uncompleted. It is only the unusual way of deploying a meeple when the tile is puting down: meeple may be deployed on this tile or on uncompleted feature on other tiles. So in a turn we put down a tile with magic portal, deploy a follower (on this tile or not) and (at this point) the portal have already been played (portal is no longer on the tile). Then other action will be done but portal has allready disappeared.