Author Topic: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune  (Read 139 times)

Offline DIN0

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Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« on: July 20, 2021, 11:56:50 AM »
Question: Can wagon, which has just completed and scored a road leading directly into the Wheel of Fortune drive into the wheel and onto the crown spaces?
Suspected answer: The roads are directly adjacent ad connected to the wheel, so there is nothing blocking the wagon function. Meeples can indeed be deployed onto the wheel, specifically crown spaces. This happens just like any other meeple placement in the move wood phase of the turn. It follows that one should be able to move wagon over to the crown spaces once the road is scored.
Interestingly, the roads do lead to specific wheel sectors, which contain specific crown spaces. This may imply wagon can only be deployed to the sector connected to the road through which it has driven. However seeing as under normal circumstances player can deploy meeple into any crownspace, regardless of the sector, same should be true for the wagon entering this feature.

Reverse situation:  if a wagon is scored on the crown space can it be instantly moved onto another feature? If so, is it a new crown space or a connected road?
Suspected answer: The reverse situation should also be possible, but wagon should not be capable of moving to just another crown space, as that would not count as leaving its current feature. It should however be able to move onto directly connected, incomplete, unoccupied road.
Argument could be made that the crown space while scored is never completed, so the wagon's ability should not activate. This would mean wagon can enter WoF via it ability, but cannot leave it using this method.

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5370.0
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 11:58:33 AM by DIN0 »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 12:28:20 PM »
The WoF's crown has always been considered as not part of playing area (just like the Markets of Leipzig and the City of Carcassonne (not affected by the dragon, fliers, tower, plague...). There is no interraction between those special area and the "tiles" surrounding them ("tiles" refers to the tiles drawn on the WoF, MoL and City of Carcassonne boards).

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Offline DIN0

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2021, 02:49:30 PM »
Well that is not entirely true. Obviously the WoF is a protected area, just like the others you have mentioned. But this does not have a bearing on the wagon.
However you do bring up an important point I forgot to mention before - C1 vs C2 wagon. C2 wagon which operates based on the cloister radius may not be able to enter these protected areas simply due to fact they are not located on a specific tile.
But C1 wagon, the one I was referring to, does not have this limitation. The only requirement is that the road leads directly into a new feature, to which a meeple can be deployed using normal meeple placement in move wood phase.

The reason wagon cannot drive into Leipzig, School and City of Carcassonne is that those have different means of recieving meeples or none at all (in case of School).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 05:55:05 PM by DIN0 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2021, 12:45:47 AM »
The reason wagon cannot drive into Leipzig, School and City of Carcassonne is that those have different means of recieving meeples or none at all (in case of School).

You can apply the same principle to the WoF. Placing a meeple on a crown space is not linked to the tile you just placed, like placing a meeple on top of a tower. The meeple "teleports" there because they are special features. The only difference between all of these special features is that the meeples on the crown space can be removed and scored, but it is not a proper fearure scoring: the points depend on the number of crown spaces and the number of meeples occupying them. Besides, no regular feature rules apply: no meeple restrictions apply (you could place an abbot or a mayor) and no majority is applied (the strength of large meeples or mayors is not considered). Crown spaces are not a feature that you can complete and score either: you occupy them and then you receive points when the big pig lands on the sector... It is not a proper feature completion. So we should assume crown spaces are like a tower in this regard... If you complete a road with a wagon connected to a tower, you wouldn't move the wagon to the tower, right?

Regarding the C1 rules for the wagon: The roads end there but there is no gate or connection to the feature it self. It would be similar to a road touching a city or two cities touching. This "touching points" does not allow you to place move the wagon between features.

A wagon can move from the road to the city and vice versa, since there is a gate:


A wagon cannot move from the road to the city and vice versa, since there is no gate connecting the features:


There is no gate at the end of the roads, so moving the wagon should not be allowed either:


You already discussed the C2 rules for the wagon allow you to move the wagon to a feature on an neighboring tile (the same tile or any adjacent tile). So, in this case, there is no concept of tile within the WoF, the same as other special areas such as the cities of Carcassonne or Leipzig.

So this would lead to the conclusion that WoF is a separate feature from the rest of the game and the wagon may be placed on a crown space, but the wagon may not move between the WoF and a road. Likewise, the wagon wouldn't be allowed to move from one crown space to another when scored... in order to stay in the WoF to score more points.

Hope this helps...
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline DIN0

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2021, 05:55:08 AM »
Quote
You can apply the same principle to the WoF. Placing a meeple on a crown space is not linked to the tile you just placed, like placing a meeple on top of a tower. The meeple "teleports" there because they are special features. The only difference between all of these special features is that the meeples on the crown space can be removed and scored, but it is not a proper fearure scoring: the points depend on the number of crown spaces and the number of meeples occupying them. Besides, no regular feature rules apply: no meeple restrictions apply (you could place an abbot or a mayor) and no majority is applied (the strength of large meeples or mayors is not considered). Crown spaces are not a feature that you can complete and score either: you occupy them and then you receive points when the big pig lands on the sector... It is not a proper feature completion. So we should assume crown spaces are like a tower in this regard... If you complete a road with a wagon connected to a tower, you wouldn't move the wagon to the tower, right?

I agree that crown spaces do not necessarily follow normal scoring rules - but I feel like that should not have much bearing on the wagon. I am merely pointing out the similar behavior in regards to the meeple placement. It is like a feature with a permanent magic portal leading to it. The "lack of completion" would prohibit the wagon from driving away from crown space once it is scored, as I mentioned already, so I can agree with that as well. But "lack of completion" does not seem to block wagon entering. A lack of standard meeple placement would - as is the case in City of Carcassonne, Leipzig and School.
The comparison with Tower is also not ideal, because wagon is one of the meeples prohibited from being a tower-topper. It is therefore not an analogous case.

Quote
Regarding the C1 rules for the wagon: The roads end there but there is no gate or connection to the feature it self. It would be similar to a road touching a city or two cities touching. This "touching points" does not allow you to place move the wagon between features.

I have been expecting this argument to be proposed, and I have to firmly disagree with it.
I am of course aware of the stipulation regarding C1 wagon movement from roads to cities and vice versa. A city gate must be present for the road to be considered "leading into the city" and for the wagon to enter it.
However, this applies solely to the cities. No other features have city gates and them stopping the road is sufficient for the adjacency rule to take place. Take cloisters, monasteries and other monastic buildings, as well as German Castles and German Cathedrals. All of them are normaly claimable non-city features, to which wagon can be moved. They do not require city gates because those do not apply there.
WoF is exactly the same in that regard: a feature with normal deployment opportunities, which ends roads, which are directly adjacent as per C1 wagon rules.

There are arguments that can be made for the wagon not being able to be driven to WoF, but the ones proposed so far are not sufficiently convincing for me. Adding the arguments in favor of the movement to the mix, I curretly lean more toward wagon being able to drive there, but not out.

I would like to run this by someone at HiG if possible (included in the next batch of questions perhaps?) So we have an official answer. I feel like in this particular case the evidence is not straightforward enough to conclude either option convincingly.
Of course I would somewhat expect them to simply say no, but that would at least give us some hard rule specific to WoF (like recently acrobat pyramids). And if it turns out that WoF cannot be entered via special meeple abilities, than by extension Phantom should not be able to be deployed there using his either.

PS: Regarding the C2 wagon , we seem to be in complete agreement there.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 05:58:02 AM by DIN0 »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2021, 06:25:30 AM »
The WoF is not a tile based feature, it's not even considered to be part of any tile. Even with C1 rules, I can't see any reason why the wagon could be moved outside of the playing tiles ???

And the wagon is moved to a feature, the WoF isn't a feature.  ???

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2021, 06:32:43 AM »
Quote
You can apply the same principle to the WoF. Placing a meeple on a crown space is not linked to the tile you just placed, like placing a meeple on top of a tower. The meeple "teleports" there because they are special features. The only difference between all of these special features is that the meeples on the crown space can be removed and scored, but it is not a proper fearure scoring: the points depend on the number of crown spaces and the number of meeples occupying them. Besides, no regular feature rules apply: no meeple restrictions apply (you could place an abbot or a mayor) and no majority is applied (the strength of large meeples or mayors is not considered). Crown spaces are not a feature that you can complete and score either: you occupy them and then you receive points when the big pig lands on the sector... It is not a proper feature completion. So we should assume crown spaces are like a tower in this regard... If you complete a road with a wagon connected to a tower, you wouldn't move the wagon to the tower, right?

I agree that crown spaces do not necessarily follow normal scoring rules - but I feel like that should not have much bearing on the wagon. I am merely pointing out the similar behavior in regards to the meeple placement. It is like a feature with a permanent magic portal leading to it. The "lack of completion" would prohibit the wagon from driving away from crown space once it is scored, as I mentioned already, so I can agree with that as well. But "lack of completion" does not seem to block wagon entering. A lack of standard meeple placement would - as is the case in City of Carcassonne, Leipzig and School.
The comparison with Tower is also not ideal, because wagon is one of the meeples prohibited from being a tower-topper. It is therefore not an analogous case.

Fair enough! The tower cannot be occupied by a wagon.

Quote
Regarding the C1 rules for the wagon: The roads end there but there is no gate or connection to the feature it self. It would be similar to a road touching a city or two cities touching. This "touching points" does not allow you to place move the wagon between features.

I have been expecting this argument to be proposed, and I have to firmly disagree with it.
I am of course aware of the stipulation regarding C1 wagon movement from roads to cities and vice versa. A city gate must be present for the road to be considered "leading into the city" and for the wagon to enter it.
However, this applies solely to the cities. No other features have city gates and them stopping the road is sufficient for the adjacency rule to take place. Take cloisters, monasteries and other monastic buildings, as well as German Castles and German Cathedrals. All of them are normaly claimable non-city features, to which wagon can be moved. They do not require city gates because those do not apply there.
WoF is exactly the same in that regard: a feature with normal deployment opportunities, which ends roads, which are directly adjacent as per C1 wagon rules.

There are arguments that can be made for the wagon not being able to be driven to WoF, but the ones proposed so far are not sufficiently convincing for me. Adding the arguments in favor of the movement to the mix, I curretly lean more toward wagon being able to drive there, but not out.

I would like to run this by someone at HiG if possible (included in the next batch of questions perhaps?) So we have an official answer. I feel like in this particular case the evidence is not straightforward enough to conclude either option convincingly.
Of course I would somewhat expect them to simply say no, but that would at least give us some hard rule specific to WoF (like recently acrobat pyramids). And if it turns out that WoF cannot be entered via special meeple abilities, than by extension Phantom should not be able to be deployed there using his either.

No issue in asking HiG about this case too. I'll add this question to the list. My last count was 125 questions to run through them (now 1 more) and I think it will take a long time for them to reply, since they seem extremely busy and don't even reply to service support questions about orders...   I sent them 7 questions about the abbot last week (after several weeks without asking anything) and yesterday they said it will take them some time to reply. :-\

PS: Regarding the C2 wagon , we seem to be in complete agreement there.

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 06:38:22 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline DIN0

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2021, 02:17:02 PM »
Oh, that is a lot of pending questions  :o
Anyway, thanks for adding it Meepledrone! Better getting an answer late than never.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question - Wagon and Wheel of Fortune
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2021, 02:47:43 PM »
You know, maybe if we ask something related to C1 rules, they will roll their eyes and play dead...

This reminded me of one of the comments by the HiG representative on Discord:

Quote
@Meepledrone please keep in mind I am always referring to the new rules. It may happen, that the online versions might be different from other explanations and answers I gave you.

So discussing the WoF may be fun!


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