Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021

[Bumsakalaka]

Yes you are rights. It's just "crop" of 9 tiles possitions from whole game.

As you mention, topleft regular tile can not stand this way alone.

[Meepledrone]

Hi Dkmvs!

Welcome to the forum.

You arrived in as sweet moment as many somewhat long-standing issues were revisited again yesterday! Now you can have fun with your halflings and mix them with German castles of the Markets of Leipzig and have a solution for any issues. 

I see you just entered this vast world of Carcassonne. Let us know what are youe expectations and what type of Carcassonne colletion you would like to build... 

Cheers!


 

[corinthiens13]

I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).

It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).

Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). 

[Meepledrone]

In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile

So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).

The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... 

[DaFees]

I think I understand most of this information but let me see if I can word it in a different to show whether or not I understand it. Regarding two halflings tiles with a connected road in a “space” or a road that crosses both halves of a double tile scoring one point. I think of it this way, each “tile” scores one point per road / city segment BUT each “space” can only score a MAX of one point. This explains two halfling tiles with a connected road in one space being worth 1 point total. This explains the road on one of the market spaces being worth one point. You’re adhering to the one point per “tile” rule without violating the max one point per “space” rule. The key word is “max” implying a space can score less than one point on average (0.5 in the case of a double tile). Of course this assumes we’re talking about incomplete features. If we’re talking about a completed city, for instance, you’d double the number as per usual. So that’d be two points per tile but a max 2 points per space.

Have I made sense of these recent clarifications.

[corinthiens13]

In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile

So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).

The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... 

Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do 

I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).

It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).

Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). 

[Meepledrone]

I think I understand most of this information but let me see if I can word it in a different to show whether or not I understand it. Regarding two halflings tiles with a connected road in a “space” or a road that crosses both halves of a double tile scoring one point. I think of it this way, each “tile” scores one point per road / city segment BUT each “space” can only score a MAX of one point. This explains two halfling tiles with a connected road in one space being worth 1 point total. This explains the road on one of the market spaces being worth one point. You’re adhering to the one point per “tile” rule without violating the max one point per “space” rule. The key word is “max” implying a space can score less than one point on average (0.5 in the case of a double tile). Of course this assumes we’re talking about incomplete features. If we’re talking about a completed city, for instance, you’d double the number as per usual. So that’d be two points per tile but a max 2 points per space.

Have I made sense of these recent clarifications.

This approach about capping the number of points per tile can be a bit complicated, since a road or a city on a halfling can be also affected by inns, German cathedrals,... and by coats of arms, cathedrals, sieges,.. respectively. So keeping control of the maximum number of points per tile in one space can be more complex than counting occupied spaces (no matter the number tiles in it)...

[Meepledrone]

In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile

So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).

The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... 

Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do 

I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).

It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).

Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). 

Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh? 

[corinthiens13]

Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh? 

Not at all!  But we have an awesome team here 

[Vital Pluymers]

In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile

So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).

The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... 

Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do 

I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).

It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).

Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). 

Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh? 

I believe the wording of corinthiens13 is easier to comprehend.

[NGC 54]

Double sized-tiles, roads on City of Leipzig tiles, the dragon, towers and German monasteries



[Q5.1] In this case, the road on a City of Leipzig tile has to be counted as 2 points instead of 1 because road is on two "spaces"? The rules mention it is scored as one road segment... Does this still apply? Or should it be scored as two "spaces"?

[A5.1] The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)


[Q5.2] So the dragon for example affects the whole tile (except the interior of the Leipzig in this case) but considers each space individually when moving.
The same would happen to a tower range

[A5.2] Exactly

A road that starts at the first square half of a German castle tile and ends at the second square half of the German castle tile scores 1 point for both road segments from the double tile?

There is a meeple on a German castle tile, on the second half of the double tile. The dragon moves on the first half of the double tile. The dragon eats that meeple? Also, a meeple placed on a German castle is eaten when the dragon is placed on any of the halves and can be captured when the range of a tower reaches both halves A meeple placed on a German castle is still considered by the watchtowers  (2 points for each meeple)?

If the fairy is placed on a double tile, it protects the whole double tile?

If you land on a German castle tile, you can land on any square half of the double tile, even if the other square half it cannot be directly reached even if you roll 1, 2 or 3?

[corinthiens13]

Double sized-tiles, roads on City of Leipzig tiles, the dragon, towers and German monasteries



[Q5.1] In this case, the road on a City of Leipzig tile has to be counted as 2 points instead of 1 because road is on two "spaces"? The rules mention it is scored as one road segment... Does this still apply? Or should it be scored as two "spaces"?

[A5.1] The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)


[Q5.2] So the dragon for example affects the whole tile (except the interior of the Leipzig in this case) but considers each space individually when moving.
The same would happen to a tower range

[A5.2] Exactly

A road that starts at the first square half of a German castle tile and ends at the second square half of the German castle tile scores 1 point for both road segments from the double tile?

Yes, as both spaces are counted (or both tiles if using my wording)

There is a meeple on a German castle tile, on the second half of the double tile. The dragon moves on the first half of the double tile. The dragon eats that meeple? Also, a meeple placed on a German castle is eaten when the dragon is placed on any of the halves and can be captured when the range of a tower reaches both halves A meeple placed on a German castle is still considered by the watchtowers  (2 points for each meeple)?

If the fairy is placed on a double tile, it protects the whole double tile?

If you land on a German castle tile, you can land on any square half of the double tile, even if the other square half it cannot be directly reached even if you roll 1, 2 or 3?

I'd say yes for all.
A double tile is considered as two tiles, but both are affected by any action affecting one of them.

Two halflings are considered as one tile, they're both affected by any action affecting one of them.

[NGC 54]

A wagon considers (when it is moved) both square halves of a double tile, even if not both square halves are adjacent with the wagon (the 9 square spaces)?

[corinthiens13]

A wagon considers (when it is moved) both square halves of a double tile, even if not both square halves are adjacent with the wagon (the 9 square spaces)?

As I understand HiG's clarification, after all, the tile split has an effect when we are scoring something and when we are performing an action (dragon movement, wagon range defining, placing gold piece range defining, Vodyanoy range defining, flying machines dice counting, plague spread, tower range counting). But if the effect of any of those actions affects part of a double tile, the other part is affected too (flying machine landing, dragon eating, fairy protection, vodyanoy capture, tower capture, plague removing meeple, wagon movement, gold piece taking...etc).

For the wagon, I'd say anywhere he is on the double tile, he can move to the 12 adjacent tiles. And if he's on a tile neighboring part of a double tile, he can go anywhere on the double tile.

What do you think?

This wording could still work properly, maybe with some more examples to make it more clear:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings for example).
A double-tile is considered as two different tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it, or two points from the flying machine's dice for example), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces, a meeple landing on a part of a double tile with a flying machine may be placed anywhere on the double tile).

[Bumsakalaka]

Well it's good to define adjacent tiles for feature tile as key word for rules.
Then adjacent tiles for monastery 9
Adjacent tiles for Double sides tiles 12
Adjacent tiles for Castle 6.

Anyway where can goes wagon When scoring Castle in C2 rules?

By mine deduction to any of 6 adjacent tiles.

This logic can be used for Ringmaster etc. For Variant where Ringmaster still can get his bonus.

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