Author Topic: Question about messages and negative points  (Read 2790 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2021, 12:18:29 AM »
And that's why I keep the CI rule that we draw messages only at the end of your turn instead of after every scoring rounds... It prevents to overuse the messages... :yellow-meeple:
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Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2021, 01:17:37 AM »

I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
Quote
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil  >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
  • initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (1st draw) turn
  • Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
  • original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...


That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!

I know that, but as mentioned, I did already have 2 draws of that message, while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns). There are 4 opportunities to draw messages in a single turn (even 5 if you draw a WoF, peasant revolt or windrose tile) if combining many expansions, and many ways to chose how many points you get (captured meeple buyback, abbot removal, bathhouse buyback, meeple protection...). That means:

  • initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )4-5 opportunities to draw a message
  • Message #4 (1st draw) turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
  • Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
  • original tile's builder turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message, at that point, there is a chance you got at least seven messages, as you had 16 to 20 opportunities to draw them(with 2nd draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn

Of course this require to focus your strategy on messages, but it may be worth it, as getting additional turns is a great opportunity !  ;)

Theoretically, that may be right, but in reality it will never happen. I rarely have two or more messages in one turn. And to get them draw after draw, I don't believe it will ever happen.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2021, 01:44:55 AM »
Theoretically, that may be right, but in reality it will never happen. I rarely have two or more messages in one turn. And to get them draw after draw, I don't believe it will ever happen.

Did you try to focus your strategy on messages, when playing a megacarcassonne with a copy of every existing expansions? This makes it not so hard to achieve  ;)
And I didn't even mention the fact that with every message action, there is a chance to repeat it. That makes even more opportunities to draw a message than the 16-20 I mentioned earlier. With a good management of scoring figures, and a strategy focused on messages for every optional scorings (bathhouse, captured meeple buyback, abbot, message action versus 2 points, moving fairy to completed feature's meeple or not...), it is not so difficult to get a lot of messages. At least that's what I experienced  :yellow-meeple:

Of course, that's a twist of the game and that's why I use CI message rule when playing a megacarcassonne.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2021, 01:51:10 AM »
So bad news. Yesterday we has a long discussion on Hig Discord about rules for messages. We are glad, that this mini is part of Big Box 2017, and for this HiG answered couple of question.

But mine conclusion for it is:
Receiving Message is bonus for player who score during phase Scoring feature - red phase in printed rules.

All other bonuses scored on different phase (Place tile / Place wood) are not consider for get message to current player!

So for receiving message is important, that your scoring meeples are moving and finish on dark space of scoring board only in Phase Scoring a Feature (movement before this phase is not relevant).

It's mean you your score will be consider if:
1. You get bonus +3 for Fairy when finished feature with your meeple with Fairy is assignet to one of your meeple on that feature
(etc)

You will not receiving message and your movement will not be consider for receiving message:
1. +1 Fairy bonus on begin of turn
2. Bonuses for Fruit bearing trees - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing of Meeple)
3. Bonus for proper placing wind rose tile in correct quadrant (half of board - depends on version of windroses) - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing a Tile)
(etc)

So big mess.
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 01:58:21 AM by Bumsakalaka »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2021, 03:29:42 AM »
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.

You should ask. Also, it is not known if you can remove your abbot during 2B-1 if it is placed as an abbot (another question).

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2021, 06:18:28 AM »
We will see. Abbot looks like points are given in phase 3 by rules.
But there are some more situation which has to be solved for "large" expansions and big box. So I hope that they'll be answered without sime answer: Mini Expansions combined with other expansion will create questions and loopholes, we haven't thought about. Therefore we can't answer those.

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2021, 06:48:56 AM »
We will see. Abbot looks like points are given in phase 3 by rules.
"On your turn, if you do not place a meeple during the 2. Placing a meeple phase, you may instead return your already-placed abbot to your supply. If you do so, you score immediately" - "immediately"
Also: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4927.msg73470#msg73470

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2021, 06:53:13 AM »
So bad news. Yesterday we has a long discussion on Hig Discord about rules for messages. We are glad, that this mini is part of Big Box 2017, and for this HiG answered couple of question.

But mine conclusion for it is:
Receiving Message is bonus for player who score during phase Scoring feature - red phase in printed rules.

All other bonuses scored on different phase (Place tile / Place wood) are not consider for get message to current player!

So for receiving message is important, that your scoring meeples are moving and finish on dark space of scoring board only in Phase Scoring a Feature (movement before this phase is not relevant).

It's mean you your score will be consider if:
1. You get bonus +3 for Fairy when finished feature with your meeple with Fairy is assignet to one of your meeple on that feature
(etc)

You will not receiving message and your movement will not be consider for receiving message:
1. +1 Fairy bonus on begin of turn
2. Bonuses for Fruit bearing trees - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing of Meeple)
3. Bonus for proper placing wind rose tile in correct quadrant (half of board - depends on version of windroses) - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing a Tile)
(etc)

So big mess.
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.

Actually, I think this is great!

  • We can forget all this scoring round thing and remember only "message is at the end of scoring phase". That's a lot simplier to explain and understand
  • Only one message opportunity per round prevents the message chains that could be problematic as explained earlier :D

For the abbot, I'm pretty sure it's scored during phase 2  :yellow-meeple:

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2021, 07:23:27 AM »
That's true. But HiG devide game to 4 phases.

Message receiving is defined in phase 3. So by interpretation of rules by HiG it's mean, that only scoring defined in phase 3 (almost can be started in different phase, but defined in phase 3, like Abbot) are consifer for receive a message at end of phase 3.

It's mean, that any scoring in rules written in Phase 1 (tile placement), Phase 2 (meeple placement), Phase 4 (Bazaar action)
are not relevant for receiving message.

This is fridays statement, so we will see future negotiations :D

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2021, 08:42:51 AM »
That's true. But HiG devide game to 4 phases.

Message receiving is defined in phase 3. So by interpretation of rules by HiG it's mean, that only scoring defined in phase 3 (almost can be started in different phase, but defined in phase 3, like Abbot) are consifer for receive a message at end of phase 3.

It's mean, that any scoring in rules written in Phase 1 (tile placement), Phase 2 (meeple placement), Phase 4 (Bazaar action)
are not relevant for receiving message.

This is fridays statement, so we will see future negotiations :D

I like those clarifications. Only the fact that abbot removed in phase 2 is still counted seems odd to me...

Now the question... Do the robbers also consider only phase 3 scorings?  ;D
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 03:07:16 AM by corinthiens13, Reason: Typo »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2021, 08:50:20 AM »
So bad news. Yesterday we has a long discussion on Hig Discord about rules for messages. We are glad, that this mini is part of Big Box 2017, and for this HiG answered couple of question.

But mine conclusion for it is:
Receiving Message is bonus for player who score during phase Scoring feature - red phase in printed rules.

All other bonuses scored on different phase (Place tile / Place wood) are not consider for get message to current player!

So for receiving message is important, that your scoring meeples are moving and finish on dark space of scoring board only in Phase Scoring a Feature (movement before this phase is not relevant).

It's mean you your score will be consider if:
1. You get bonus +3 for Fairy when finished feature with your meeple with Fairy is assignet to one of your meeple on that feature
(etc)

You will not receiving message and your movement will not be consider for receiving message:
1. +1 Fairy bonus on begin of turn
2. Bonuses for Fruit bearing trees - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing of Meeple)
3. Bonus for proper placing wind rose tile in correct quadrant (half of board - depends on version of windroses) - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing a Tile)
(etc)

So big mess.
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.

Are you going to post the detailed questions and answers you had with HiG about that matter?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2021, 09:05:52 AM »
We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2021, 10:07:39 AM »
We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.

Thanks for the info.

It hope the abbot points if removed during plase 2, place a meeple, is not considered by messages. It'd be strange and more difficult to explain and understand otherwise  :yellow-meeple:

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2021, 10:14:45 AM »
HiG is interpreting the rules as follows:

1) Actions described in a phase happen in that phase. This is not true in all cases:
    - The fairy point at the beginning of a turn is described in 1. Placing a tile. (Scored immediately)
    - Peasant revolt scoring is described in 1. Placing a tile. (Score immediately)
    - Removing the abbot is described in 3. Scoring a feature. (Triggered in 2. Placing a tile and scored in 3. Scoring a feature?)
    - Fruit-bearing trees actions are described in 2. Scoring a meeple. (Scored here?)
    - Scoring an acrobat pyramid is described in 3. Scoring a feature.  (Triggered in 2. Scoring a meeple and scored in 3. Scoring a feature?)
    - Scoring a shepherd's flock in described in 1. Placing a tile. (Scored here?)

2) Players always score in 3. Scoring a feature. However, some actions like scoring the fairy point happens in 1. Placing a tile.

3) We used the removal of the abbot as a reference case. The rules can be read with two different points of view:
    a) HiG's current position: you trigger the scoring of the abbot in 2. Placing a meeple but you score the points in 3. Scoring a feature.
        - Evidence #1: HiG base their response on the phase used to describe the action in Big Box 7 (2017). The previous rules from 2014 didn't asign to the scoring phase.
        - Issue #1: The box does not correspond to 3. Scoring a feature. It is seems more like a combination of rules. The base game supplemental rules did not have a clear separation for these two types of scoring.
        - Issue #2: The scoring happens after the movement of the dragon, so if the abbot is eaten, you lose the points. So how can you trigger a scoring that can be cancelled by the dragon? It doesn't make much sense to me.



    b) CAR/WICA's current position: you score immediately in 2. Placing a meeple so the dragon has no effect.
        - Evidence #1: This approach was clarified by Geor Wild in 3/2015.
        - Evidence #2: The turn sequence summary in Big Box 6 (2017) includes this action in 2. Placing a meeple.



So as you can see there are a number of issues to solve here, and a number od questions to ask to get this clarified. HiG are contradicting themselves.



A separate issue is when robbers and messages are handles. In the turn sequence above, you can see several issues:
- If the abbot is scored in 2. Placing a meeple, it would require to consider also robbers, and it would contradict current's HiG point of view and you can score the abbot and fool the dragon.
- If messages (in the new rules, as HiG called them) are handled at the end this would contradict Geog Wild's clarifications, but it would a simpler version of our current understanding of the tuen sequence (and a relief for everyone).

Note: The abbot can be flier but wasn't  displayed correctly in the turn summary above. HiG forgot and never corrected this issue has been replicated everywhre, as clarified by Kettlefish. She participated in the proofreading team. (In BB4 they forgot to include the crop circles action...)



EDIT: Included more info on the rules for the abbot in BB6.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 10:26:21 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2021, 10:29:14 AM »
We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.

Thanks for the info.

It hope the abbot points if removed during plase 2, place a meeple, is not considered by messages. It'd be strange and more difficult to explain and understand otherwise  :yellow-meeple:

Come what may, messages will consider all points during the active player's turn. The only thing relevant to them is final position on the scoreboard of the scoring figures moving during this turn.


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