Author Topic: Question about messages and negative points  (Read 2792 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Question about messages and negative points
« on: January 25, 2021, 01:47:05 PM »
Recent clarifications about the peasant revolts made me think about a situation I don't know how to handle, and WICA doesn't give an answer to that I think  ???

If, at the end of a round of scoring, one of the active player's scoring ends up on a dark space of the scoreboard :
  • after scoring points, he gets a message
  • after losing points, he doesn't get a message
  • but what if he did both?

Example :
During step 2, I take a meeple from a bathouse (-5), place a meeple and protect it (-4), buy back a captured meeple (-3), place a phantom and protect it (-4), take back my flock with two sheeps (+2) and get a fruit (+3).

If I move the messenger for negative points, and the other scoring figure for positive points and it ends up on a dark space of the scoreboard, I'd get a message.

But if I move my messenger only and it ends on a dark space of the scoreboard, do we consider :
  • I get a message, since I still got some positive points?
  • I do not get a message, since the total movement during that scoring round wasn't positive?

We could also imagine a "zero" situation, 3 points for abbot removal and - 3 points for buying back a captured meeple...

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2021, 02:56:55 PM »
In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 09:12:23 PM »
In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.

Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
  • I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
  • I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 11:35:09 PM »
If my knowledge of rules is:
You can get message only when you:
1. It's your turn
2. You move forward on scoring board
3. Only on accasional situations, which are:
 i) when get fairy bonus on beginning turn
 ii) resolve draw tile bonuses (peasant revolt, wheel of fortune)
 iii) placed tile (wind of roses)
 iv) resolve all actions in place wood phase I including placing phantom (bathhouse ransom, returning of abbot, acrobat pyramids, peasant revolts protection, peasant revolt itself, guided shephards sheeps, sold fruits - these has to be finished and then if summary is moving forward, then you are able to get message
 v) score all finished features including bonuses by finished features (teacher, ringmaster, castle, etc.) including bit top moving bonus and gingerbread man bonus - same is (iv.) all features all together has to be solved to possibility to get message
 vi) catapult scoring
 vii) solve message itself can fire get another message

This is important to say, that both meeples on scoring board has to move forward to get message in "iv" and scoring of feature is solving separatelly, so player has multiple opportunities to get a lot of messages ;-)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 11:39:59 PM by Bumsakalaka »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 11:42:54 PM »
If my knowledge of rules is:
You can get message only when you:
1. It's your turn
2. You move forward on scoring board
3. Only on accasional situations, which are:
 i) when get fairy bonus on beginning turn
 ii) resolve draw tile bonuses (peasant revolt, wheel of fortune)
 iii) placed tile (wind of roses)
 iv) resolve all actions in place wood phase I including placing phantom (bathhouse ransom, returning of abbot, acrobat pyramids, peasant revolts protection, peasant revolt itself, guided shephards sheeps, sold fruits

Yes, that's after each round of scoring (add also after every scoring in step 3 have been done, and at the end of step 4).

But the question is for when, during a single round of scoring (during move the wood in the examples I mentioned), I moved both forward and backward...

According to Meepledrone, during a round of scoring:
In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.

And so my remaining question is:
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
  • I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
  • I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 11:56:57 PM »
@corinthiens13 witght, but a click outside of text to check issue on WiCa and than going back to CarcC and press enter to new line, and it stored my reply without finising, so I modify it. and added in storing phase missing section v, and vi and vii ;-)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2021, 12:25:02 AM »
This is important to say, that both meeples on scoring board has to move forward to get message in "iv" and scoring of feature is solving separatelly, so player has multiple opportunities to get a lot of messages ;-)

They both have to move forward? If only one moves forward and ends on a dark space, there's no message?  ??? I'm pretty sure only one figure has to move forward to get a message (assuming the figure that moved forward ended on a dark space)... Rule says:
Quote
If, during your turn (and only during your turn), your scoring meeple or your messenger moves to and stops on one of the dark spaces (0, 5, 10, 15, etc.) [1], immediately draw and resolve one message.
Or, not and  ;)

For sure there's plenty opportunities to get messages. I could even play 4 turns once (one builder turn, and two message turns), due to drawing every message tiles twice during my turns...  >:D
But if you look at the order of play, during step 3, the message action is only in Step 3C: Resolve the Tile Scoring, so it is NOT repeated after each feature scoring (step 3b), only at the end of step 3c !

And still, my question:
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
  • I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
  • I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2021, 07:52:38 AM »
But if you look at the order of play, during step 3, the message action is only in Step 3C: Resolve the Tile Scoring, so it is NOT repeated after each feature scoring (step 3b), only at the end of step 3c !

Yes this is correct. You can get only one message in Phase 3 - Scoring the Features. So it's important to make discovered board and decite to move your scoring meeples in correct order to get message.

Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2021, 07:57:00 AM »
Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?

The rule state:
Quote
You can only draw one message from a round of scoring. Even if both your meeple and your messenger land on dark spaces during one turn (by scoring two features), you will still only draw one message tile.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 09:06:00 AM »
Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?

The rule state:
Quote
You can only draw one message from a round of scoring. Even if both your meeple and your messenger land on dark spaces during one turn (by scoring two features), you will still only draw one message tile.

It's loss ;-( Ok. Thanks
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:31:59 AM by Bumsakalaka »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 11:24:42 AM »
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
  • I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
  • I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?

Case 1. Since your messenger moved forward with the last scoring, you will receive a message. Previous movements in the same round of scoring are irrelelvant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.

Case 2. Since your messenger moved backwards with the last scoring, you will not receive a message. Previous movements n the same round of scoring are irrelevant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.

Bear in mind that the rules normally consider one scoring per round of scoring... The addition of several expansions allowed in one round os scoring several scoring events... But in any case, there is no memory effect between scoring events or rounds of scoring.

So you may decide to use one of your scoring figures to target dark spaces on the scoreboard and use the other to score those unwanted possitive or negative points... Anything goes in this case.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 09:16:00 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 01:12:37 PM »
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
  • I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
  • I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?

Case 1. Since your messenger moved forward with the last scoring, you will receive a message. Previous movements in the same round of scoring are irrelelvant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.

Case 2. Since your messenger moved bacwards with the last scoring, you will not receive a message. Previous movements n the same round of scoring are irrelevant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.

Bear in mind that the rules normally consider one scoring per round of scoring... The addition of several expansions allowed in one round os scoring several scoring events... But in any case, there is no memory effect between scoring events or rounds of scoring.

So you may decide to use one of your scoring figures to target dark spaces on the scoreboard and use the other to score those unwanted possitive or negative points... Anything goes in this case.

Thanks for the confirmation. I think the fact that we consider only the last movement should be mentioned in the order of play:

"If playing with Mini #2 - Messages (Dispatches), the player scoring points chooses which scoring figure to move each time points are awarded. When you see MESSAGES (#ROUND), after scoring is completed for a given round of scoring, if one of your scoring figures has just landed on a dark space of the scoreboard and his last movement was forward (positive points and not negative, previous movements doesn't matter), you may draw a Message tile if there were no other players' scoring figures on it (ZMG rules only). The (#ROUND) identifier indicates the round of scoring within a turn sequence. Only one Message tile can be drawn per round or scoring (even if both scoring figures ended up on dark spaces the same round). Note that resolving a Message tile could also trigger the drawing of another Message tile."

And in the message's page:
"In order to trigger a Message, the landing on a dark space will take into consideration the last movement of a scoring figure during a round of scoring. That last movement has to be forward (including stolen points or payments received), not backward (due to payments), previous movements doesn't matter.any scoring moving forward a scoring figure on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received). No backwards movements of scoring figures landing on a dark space (due to payments) will be considered."


One more suggestion: I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
Quote
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil  >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
  • initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (1st draw) turn
  • Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
  • original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...

Anyway, this means the message turn is a complete turn and it does also allow a second captured meeple buyback, fairy 1 point, plague spread and plague flight? This should be added to footnote 5 of the messages rules, as Carcassonne93 suggested https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#cs-comment-20676  ;)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 01:28:22 PM »
Also, in the order of play, the last message round is directly after the catapult, not at the end of step 4a, after the bazar action? So points gained by the active player during an auction are not part of a round of scoring?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 01:55:11 PM by corinthiens13, Reason: Added screenshot »

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2021, 11:40:20 PM »

I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
Quote
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil  >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
  • initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (1st draw) turn
  • Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
  • original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...


That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Question about messages and negative points
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 12:17:17 AM »

I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
Quote
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil  >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
  • initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (1st draw) turn
  • Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
  • original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...


That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!

I know that, but as mentioned, I did already have 2 draws of that message, while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns). There are 4 opportunities to draw messages in a single turn (even 5 if you draw a WoF, peasant revolt or windrose tile) if combining many expansions, and many ways to chose how many points you get (captured meeple buyback, abbot removal, bathhouse buyback, meeple protection...). That means:

  • initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )4-5 opportunities to draw a message
  • Message #4 (1st draw) turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
  • Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
  • original tile's builder turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message, at that point, there is a chance you got at least seven messages, as you had 16 to 20 opportunities to draw them(with 2nd draw of message #4 )
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
  • Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn

Of course this require to focus your strategy on messages, but it may be worth it, as getting additional turns is a great opportunity !  ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 12:20:17 AM by corinthiens13 »


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