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Messages - Just a Bill
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31
« on: May 15, 2018, 03:12:03 PM »
But the printed version would be final-3 or so...
So even this final-2 file is not really correct?
32
« on: May 15, 2018, 02:59:39 PM »
This is a bit confusing ... it seems like the English and German are saying the same thing for messenger tile #4, unless the German is saying that you get to deploy an additional figure (i.e., two figures on that extra tile). But I don't think that would be the case, would it? So I must not be understanding some subtlety of expression in the German version. Also, the graphic you have for messenger tile #8 is different from the BB6 PDF rulebook that I downloaded from the German forums. That PDF file looks like this:  In other words, the following sentence does not exist in my German BB6 PDF file: Du darfst auch einen Meeple zurücknehmen, für den du keine Punkte bekommst.I am translating this as "You may also take back a Meeple for which you receive no points" under the assumption that what it is trying to say is, you can take back a meeple whether you DO or DO NOT have the majority. If you have the majority you score, if you don't have the majority then you do not score. If I am correct about that, then the English seems to have mistranslated all of this as "you get the points even if you DON'T have the majority, unless you are ridiculous and decide you don't want the points; then you don't have to score anything but this is your choice." What a mess!
33
« on: May 12, 2018, 08:45:56 AM »
The German robber rules are so much better than what I have been playing. UK rules mean all get to use the robber giving no advantage to active player.
Actually the unique advantage to the active player (under either ruleset) is that he alone gets to move his robber if it is already on the scoring track. The other side of the coin with the German rules is that some players could never get to use their robber at all; this seems to favor the luck of the draw too much. In addition, this mechanism does not scale at all between two-player and multi-player environments. With two, "everyone" gets their robber onto the scoring track. But the more players you have, the greater the likelihood of not getting to use the robber at all, and/or some players getting to re-use their robber a disproportionate number of times based purely on the luck of the draw and the luck of which chair they sat down in. The more players you have, and the more tiles you're using in the game, the worse this gets. (More tiles means a greater chance that the previously used robbers have already returned to the supply, decreasing the likelihood that the players who were "left behind" last time will be close enough to the left of the active player next time to get their chance at robbing.) Frankly, the higher luck factor and the asymmetry combine to make this seem like a weak design to me. Or at least not a very polished design that fits the Carcassonne ethos especially well. High luck and asymmetry can work well in games designed for them, but I was actually pretty surprised to learn (after I re-read the rules and understood them) that they actually intended this mini-expansion to work that way.
34
« on: May 10, 2018, 09:28:30 AM »
Ah yes, I misread it. You are correct, the German rules are clear and the English rules are (apparently) different on purpose.
So under the German rules, it is very possible that some players could never get to use their robbers. Interesting....
35
« on: May 10, 2018, 08:50:29 AM »
There is a huge difference among German and English Big Box 6 rules concerning the mini expansion 6 "the Robbers".
Wow, yes there are two differences: (1) German explicitly allows the robber to go on the same scoring space as a messenger/woman follower; English does not. (2) German makes placing robbers optional; English makes it mandatory. This all reminds me of the old RGG days where Jay Tummelson would just take his best shot and often get things wrong, sometimes even stating them literally backwards from the original rules. EDIT: Hmm, I just checked the CAR and there also is (and was) some uncertainty about whether the German rules allow all players to place their robbers, or just the active player and then the one player on his left. The latter doesn't really make sense, of course, but that does seem to be what the German rules are saying and it is how the CAR presents the rule, with a footnote that Z-Man changed it to allow everyone to go. I think I would have to agree with the CAR: in German, the references to the next player are singular, not plural, and I don't see anything that would translate as "each/every," "and so on," or "etc.", so there doesn't seem to be any indication that the remaining players get to place their robbers. That's pretty weird. I've owned this game for 18 years and now I'm wondering if I actually play it correctly. 
36
« on: May 10, 2018, 08:34:39 AM »
Indeed, this is a good idea. Merit for you. Wow, that Z-man translation on the pig paragraph is pretty bad! German BB6Falls dein Schwein durch Entfernen von Bauern (was durch manche Erweiterungen möglich ist) im Spielverlauf auf einer Wiese steht, auf der keiner deiner Bauern mehr liegt, nimmst du es in deinen Vorrat zurück. Bill/Google translation (trying to be reasonably close to literal)If your pig, due to removal of farmers (which is possible with some expansions), is left standing during the game in a field where none of your farmers are left, return it to your supply. Z-man BB6If your pig is removed from the field, return it to your supply. The Z-man rule is basically useless. It only tells us what we already know, and fails to define the rule by which the pig would be removed in the first place. 
37
« on: May 10, 2018, 06:19:48 AM »
So reading through the English and German rules for Big Box 6 does indeed paint a better picture of the intended terminology for C-II than the earlier rulebooks did. It's good that HiG finally cleared some of these things up last year.
Unfortunately the English rules have additional mistakes and differences vs. the German. Some of these are just weird translation choices, like rendering Mistgabel as "rake" when it clearly means (and clearly looks like) a pitchfork. Two completely different tools, as any farmer or gardener will know.
Others are more gameplay-affecting, such as the rule on page 13 that you can only place your builder in a feature where you have a "normal meeple." Normal meeple is a game term consistently used to mean only the 7 pieces of wood you get from the base game; it purposely excludes the other meeples in the expansion sets, and is used in contexts where only an original base-game meeple applies. The German rules do not make this mistake (rough translation: "one of your own meeples must be located"), so according to BB6.DE you can place your builder next to a mayor, wagon, large follower, etc., but according to BB6.EN — as written, anyway — you cannot.
I would guess that either this is another case of corrections not being given to Z-Man, or else somebody at Z-Man thought they were making things more clear when in reality they were making them incorrect (I've seen this happen too many times over the years; non-editors trying to "improve" rules without proper editorial review).
However, there is a problem in both languages on page 24: They forbid the Abbot from using the Flying Machine, when we know it can, both from how the individual rules for the abbot and the flying machine are defined and also from the specific ruling on this point issued in 2015 (CAR footnote 384). Kettlefish, do you know if this was an intentional rules change in Big Box 6, or just an error?
38
« on: May 06, 2018, 11:50:38 AM »
How can I help with clarification of rules if you don't use the correct function of all the figures?
I think we are having two different conversations here. Thank you for your help. -Bill
39
« on: May 06, 2018, 06:27:29 AM »
I think that the HiG publisher gaves the rules for translation to Z-man before we corrected that sentence in the German rules.
Thank you; that could explain why this and other things are not defined clearly in the English rules. The German rule stays clear that a pig can be placed onto a farm/field (German: Wiese=meadow) when there is still an own meeple onto that farm. That means that a meeple as a farmer was placed in a previous turn of that player.
My point was that the English rules (at least) do not actually state when this can happen. Nowhere do they say that the pig must be placed instead of deploying a meeple (i.e., as a move-wood action), and they also do not use the word "deploy." They simply say that you place the pig onto a field occupied by your farmer (the Englush rules actually do not require that the farmer had to be placed on a previous turn). This could easily lead new players to think you can deploy a farmer and then place your pig with it. Of course, those of us who have played the game with the benefit of the CC-I rules know what the intention is, but the Englush rulebook for CC-II does not actually define this. This information is missing. That's all I was trying to point out. You can find the definition which figures are neutral figures in the BigBoxes CC I.
...
You can find the definition of figures like the dragon, barn and the shepherd iin the BigBoxes CC I.
I understand how all these things are defined from the CC-I rules. My comments in this thread have been focused on how the CC-II rules have subtly changed how gameplay is defined. These changes may have been intentional or and/unintentional, and it sounds like at least one of them is a consequence of corrections not being given to Z-Man, but my focus has been to discuss the final result of the English rules that were actually published.
40
« on: May 05, 2018, 06:26:58 PM »
The Big Meeple is a meeple see page 24 from the BigBox 6 (published in 2017).
Thank you for this reference, kettlefish. I did not have the BB6 rules available when I did my rules review last June. So it seems this definition was in fact clarified in 2017. Does this mean that wagons, mayors, ringmasters, etc. are also officially Meeples? Or only big meeples and phantoms?
41
« on: May 05, 2018, 04:38:53 PM »
Meeples:
- Meeple
- Big Meeple (not used as an Artist)
- Ringmaster (not used as an Artist)
- Phantom (the Phantom was published for the classical Carcassonne game, but it can also be used for the Carcassonne - New Edition)
According to the English rules, the Big Meeple is not actually a Meeple; it and other figures are defined as "figures that are used like meeples." Can you confirm whether this is a rules difference vs. the German rules? | | EDIT: I looked up the German rules for Expansion 3 (where this is defined) and ran the paragraph through Google translate. Here are the comparisons:
English rules: All figures that are used like meeples (abbot, large meeple, mayor, and wagon) may be placed via the magic portal.
German rules: Figuren, die eine ähnliche Funktionen wie ein Meeple (Abt, großer Meeple, Bürgermeister oder Wagen) haben, dürfen den Zaubergang ebenfalls nutzen.
Google translation of German rules: Characters that have similar functions as a Meeple (Abbot, Great Meeple, Mayor, or Carriage) may also use the casting spell.
To my surprise, the German rules actually make a slightly wider separation ("similar functions" is a bit further from "used like"). In any case, this confirms (in both languages) that abbots, mayors, wagons, and big meeples are not meeples, but rather are figures that have similar functions as/are used like meeples. |
I would have to assume that the Ringmaster, from the perspective of the English rules as written, would also be in the category of "non-meeples that are used like meeples," although it's not hard to assume that the Phantom could actually be a full-fledged Meeple. Please note, I fully realize that the definition above may not make sense to some players. But I am not attempting to state what would make sense to me; I am only reporting what the rules actually say. (If this was not the design intent, then perhaps the publishers may wish to consider issuing a correction?)
42
« on: May 05, 2018, 04:35:05 AM »
Thanks everyone for the responses, and especially the photo, Dirk!
43
« on: May 03, 2018, 08:06:36 PM »
I'm thinking about buying a couple of Carcassonne-I expansions from the Italian Amazon (Tower and Princess & Dragon). All my other sets are mostly Rio Grande and HiG editions.
Does anyone know if the printing of the Giochi Uniti editions is comparable to the English/German editions? I'm thinking about quality of the cardstock and printing, as well as the coloration.
Thanks in advance.
44
« on: May 01, 2018, 11:53:14 AM »
Oh kettlefish, you did not do anything wrong. The image problem was the fault of the hosting provider, postimg.org. Your update today was helpful, because it made me realize that all my images were missing (they had already been missing even before you came here today).
45
« on: May 01, 2018, 10:54:01 AM »
I got a notification today that kettlefish had stickied this topic, which made me realize that all of the images were hidden thanks to postimg.org losing control of that domain. So I just updated all the links to point to postimg.cc, which fixed that. My apologies for the inconvenience.
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