Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: corinthiens13 on January 25, 2021, 01:47:05 PM
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Recent clarifications about the peasant revolts made me think about a situation I don't know how to handle, and WICA doesn't give an answer to that I think ???
If, at the end of a round of scoring, one of the active player's scoring ends up on a dark space of the scoreboard :
- after scoring points, he gets a message
- after losing points, he doesn't get a message
- but what if he did both?
Example :
During step 2, I take a meeple from a bathouse (-5), place a meeple and protect it (-4), buy back a captured meeple (-3), place a phantom and protect it (-4), take back my flock with two sheeps (+2) and get a fruit (+3).
If I move the messenger for negative points, and the other scoring figure for positive points and it ends up on a dark space of the scoreboard, I'd get a message.
But if I move my messenger only and it ends on a dark space of the scoreboard, do we consider :
- I get a message, since I still got some positive points?
- I do not get a message, since the total movement during that scoring round wasn't positive?
We could also imagine a "zero" situation, 3 points for abbot removal and - 3 points for buying back a captured meeple...
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In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.
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In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
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If my knowledge of rules is:
You can get message only when you:
1. It's your turn
2. You move forward on scoring board
3. Only on accasional situations, which are:
i) when get fairy bonus on beginning turn
ii) resolve draw tile bonuses (peasant revolt, wheel of fortune)
iii) placed tile (wind of roses)
iv) resolve all actions in place wood phase I including placing phantom (bathhouse ransom, returning of abbot, acrobat pyramids, peasant revolts protection, peasant revolt itself, guided shephards sheeps, sold fruits - these has to be finished and then if summary is moving forward, then you are able to get message
v) score all finished features including bonuses by finished features (teacher, ringmaster, castle, etc.) including bit top moving bonus and gingerbread man bonus - same is (iv.) all features all together has to be solved to possibility to get message
vi) catapult scoring
vii) solve message itself can fire get another message
This is important to say, that both meeples on scoring board has to move forward to get message in "iv" and scoring of feature is solving separatelly, so player has multiple opportunities to get a lot of messages ;-)
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If my knowledge of rules is:
You can get message only when you:
1. It's your turn
2. You move forward on scoring board
3. Only on accasional situations, which are:
i) when get fairy bonus on beginning turn
ii) resolve draw tile bonuses (peasant revolt, wheel of fortune)
iii) placed tile (wind of roses)
iv) resolve all actions in place wood phase I including placing phantom (bathhouse ransom, returning of abbot, acrobat pyramids, peasant revolts protection, peasant revolt itself, guided shephards sheeps, sold fruits
Yes, that's after each round of scoring (add also after every scoring in step 3 have been done, and at the end of step 4).
But the question is for when, during a single round of scoring (during move the wood in the examples I mentioned), I moved both forward and backward...
According to Meepledrone, during a round of scoring:
In order to trigger a message, you only take into consideration the last move of your scoring figure(s): At least one of them has to move forward and end up on a dark space.
And so my remaining question is:
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
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@corinthiens13 witght, but a click outside of text to check issue on WiCa and than going back to CarcC and press enter to new line, and it stored my reply without finising, so I modify it. and added in storing phase missing section v, and vi and vii ;-)
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This is important to say, that both meeples on scoring board has to move forward to get message in "iv" and scoring of feature is solving separatelly, so player has multiple opportunities to get a lot of messages ;-)
They both have to move forward? If only one moves forward and ends on a dark space, there's no message? ??? I'm pretty sure only one figure has to move forward to get a message (assuming the figure that moved forward ended on a dark space)... Rule says: If, during your turn (and only during your turn), your scoring meeple or your messenger moves to and stops on one of the dark spaces (0, 5, 10, 15, etc.) [1], immediately draw and resolve one message.
Or, not and ;)
For sure there's plenty opportunities to get messages. I could even play 4 turns once (one builder turn, and two message turns), due to drawing every message tiles twice during my turns... >:D
But if you look at the order of play, during step 3, the message action is only in Step 3C: Resolve the Tile Scoring, so it is NOT repeated after each feature scoring (step 3b), only at the end of step 3c !
And still, my question:
Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
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But if you look at the order of play, during step 3, the message action is only in Step 3C: Resolve the Tile Scoring, so it is NOT repeated after each feature scoring (step 3b), only at the end of step 3c !
Yes this is correct. You can get only one message in Phase 3 - Scoring the Features. So it's important to make discovered board and decite to move your scoring meeples in correct order to get message.
Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?
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Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?
The rule state:
You can only draw one message from a round of scoring. Even if both your meeple and your messenger land on dark spaces during one turn (by scoring two features), you will still only draw one message tile.
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Anyway, I have a question. What if both meeples on scoring board will move forward and stopped on dark space (5k place) ?
The rule state:
You can only draw one message from a round of scoring. Even if both your meeple and your messenger land on dark spaces during one turn (by scoring two features), you will still only draw one message tile.
It's loss ;-( Ok. Thanks
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Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
Case 1. Since your messenger moved forward with the last scoring, you will receive a message. Previous movements in the same round of scoring are irrelelvant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.
Case 2. Since your messenger moved backwards with the last scoring, you will not receive a message. Previous movements n the same round of scoring are irrelevant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.
Bear in mind that the rules normally consider one scoring per round of scoring... The addition of several expansions allowed in one round os scoring several scoring events... But in any case, there is no memory effect between scoring events or rounds of scoring.
So you may decide to use one of your scoring figures to target dark spaces on the scoreboard and use the other to score those unwanted possitive or negative points... Anything goes in this case.
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Only the last move, does it mean that if, during a round of scoring, moving only the messenger :
- I lose 5 points (bathhouse) and then earn 2 points (abbot removal) and end up on a dark space, I get a message as the last move in 2. Placing a meeple was forward (even if total movement during that round of scoring was backward)?
- I earn 8 points (abbot removal) and then loses 4 (phantom protection) and end up on a dark space, I do not get a message because last move in 2. Placing a meeple was backwards (even if total movement during that round of scoring was forward)?
Case 1. Since your messenger moved forward with the last scoring, you will receive a message. Previous movements in the same round of scoring are irrelelvant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.
Case 2. Since your messenger moved bacwards with the last scoring, you will not receive a message. Previous movements n the same round of scoring are irrelevant, the same as if you lost points or won points compared to the result of a previous round of scoring.
Bear in mind that the rules normally consider one scoring per round of scoring... The addition of several expansions allowed in one round os scoring several scoring events... But in any case, there is no memory effect between scoring events or rounds of scoring.
So you may decide to use one of your scoring figures to target dark spaces on the scoreboard and use the other to score those unwanted possitive or negative points... Anything goes in this case.
Thanks for the confirmation. I think the fact that we consider only the last movement should be mentioned in the order of play:
"If playing with Mini #2 - Messages (Dispatches), the player scoring points chooses which scoring figure to move each time points are awarded. When you see MESSAGES (#ROUND), after scoring is completed for a given round of scoring, if one of your scoring figures has just landed on a dark space of the scoreboard and his last movement was forward (positive points and not negative, previous movements doesn't matter), you may draw a Message tile if there were no other players' scoring figures on it (ZMG rules only). The (#ROUND) identifier indicates the round of scoring within a turn sequence. Only one Message tile can be drawn per round or scoring (even if both scoring figures ended up on dark spaces the same round). Note that resolving a Message tile could also trigger the drawing of another Message tile."
And in the message's page:
"In order to trigger a Message, the landing on a dark space will take into consideration the last movement of a scoring figure during a round of scoring. That last movement has to be forward (including stolen points or payments received), not backward (due to payments), previous movements doesn't matter.any scoring moving forward a scoring figure on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received). No backwards movements of scoring figures landing on a dark space (due to payments) will be considered."
One more suggestion: I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
- original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...
Anyway, this means the message turn is a complete turn and it does also allow a second captured meeple buyback, fairy 1 point, plague spread and plague flight? This should be added to footnote 5 of the messages rules, as Carcassonne93 suggested https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#cs-comment-20676 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#cs-comment-20676) ;)
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Also, in the order of play, the last message round is directly after the catapult, not at the end of step 4a, after the bazar action? So points gained by the active player during an auction are not part of a round of scoring?
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I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
- original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...
That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!
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I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
- original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...
That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!
I know that, but as mentioned, I did already have 2 draws of that message, while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns). There are 4 opportunities to draw messages in a single turn (even 5 if you draw a WoF, peasant revolt or windrose tile) if combining many expansions, and many ways to chose how many points you get (captured meeple buyback, abbot removal, bathhouse buyback, meeple protection...). That means:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )4-5 opportunities to draw a message
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
- original tile's builder turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message, at that point, there is a chance you got at least seven messages, as you had 16 to 20 opportunities to draw them(with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
Of course this require to focus your strategy on messages, but it may be worth it, as getting additional turns is a great opportunity ! ;)
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And that's why I keep the CI rule that we draw messages only at the end of your turn instead of after every scoring rounds... It prevents to overuse the messages... :yellow-meeple:
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I did just realize the message #4 may grant a builder double turn even if the builder did already grant a double turn before:
If a tile is added to a feature with a builder and triggers the drawing of Message #4, The Message extra tile comes before the builder extra turn. If the extra tile from the Message is put on the builder's feature, this will create another builder extra turn. Thus, the events would be: initial turn => Message #4 turn => Message #4 builder turn => original tile's builder turn. (11/2013)
This is evil >:D
When combining many expansions, there are chances every messages are drawn twice, and so the message #4 too. We could immagine the following sequence:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn
- original tile's builder turn (with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
And it could go on for two more turns if there's a third draw of message #4... I did already have 2 draws of that message while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns), so I guess with 6 turns (sequence above), a 3rd draw of message 4 could be possible...
That chain reaction can hardly happen. After the initial draw of your Message #4 tile, you have to place it at the bottom of the facedown stack again. So, that means that you have to draw the seven other message tiles first before you are able to draw the Massage #4 tile for the second time. That will not happen!
I know that, but as mentioned, I did already have 2 draws of that message, while I didn't allow two builders turn (the sequence brought "only" 4 turns then, 1 original, 1 builder, and 2 message turns). There are 4 opportunities to draw messages in a single turn (even 5 if you draw a WoF, peasant revolt or windrose tile) if combining many expansions, and many ways to chose how many points you get (captured meeple buyback, abbot removal, bathhouse buyback, meeple protection...). That means:
- initial turn (with 1st draw of message #4 )4-5 opportunities to draw a message
- Message #4 (1st draw) turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
- Message #4 (1st draw) builder turn4-5 more opportunities to draw a message
- original tile's builder turn 4-5 more opportunities to draw a message, at that point, there is a chance you got at least seven messages, as you had 16 to 20 opportunities to draw them(with 2nd draw of message #4 )
- Message #4 (2nd draw) turn
- Message #4 (2nd draw) builder turn
Of course this require to focus your strategy on messages, but it may be worth it, as getting additional turns is a great opportunity ! ;)
Theoretically, that may be right, but in reality it will never happen. I rarely have two or more messages in one turn. And to get them draw after draw, I don't believe it will ever happen.
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Theoretically, that may be right, but in reality it will never happen. I rarely have two or more messages in one turn. And to get them draw after draw, I don't believe it will ever happen.
Did you try to focus your strategy on messages, when playing a megacarcassonne with a copy of every existing expansions? This makes it not so hard to achieve ;)
And I didn't even mention the fact that with every message action, there is a chance to repeat it. That makes even more opportunities to draw a message than the 16-20 I mentioned earlier. With a good management of scoring figures, and a strategy focused on messages for every optional scorings (bathhouse, captured meeple buyback, abbot, message action versus 2 points, moving fairy to completed feature's meeple or not...), it is not so difficult to get a lot of messages. At least that's what I experienced :yellow-meeple:
Of course, that's a twist of the game and that's why I use CI message rule when playing a megacarcassonne.
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So bad news. Yesterday we has a long discussion on Hig Discord about rules for messages. We are glad, that this mini is part of Big Box 2017, and for this HiG answered couple of question.
But mine conclusion for it is:
Receiving Message is bonus for player who score during phase Scoring feature - red phase in printed rules.
All other bonuses scored on different phase (Place tile / Place wood) are not consider for get message to current player!
So for receiving message is important, that your scoring meeples are moving and finish on dark space of scoring board only in Phase Scoring a Feature (movement before this phase is not relevant).
It's mean you your score will be consider if:
1. You get bonus +3 for Fairy when finished feature with your meeple with Fairy is assignet to one of your meeple on that feature
(etc)
You will not receiving message and your movement will not be consider for receiving message:
1. +1 Fairy bonus on begin of turn
2. Bonuses for Fruit bearing trees - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing of Meeple)
3. Bonus for proper placing wind rose tile in correct quadrant (half of board - depends on version of windroses) - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing a Tile)
(etc)
So big mess.
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.
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Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.
You should ask. Also, it is not known if you can remove your abbot during 2B-1 if it is placed as an abbot (another question).
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We will see. Abbot looks like points are given in phase 3 by rules.
But there are some more situation which has to be solved for "large" expansions and big box. So I hope that they'll be answered without sime answer: Mini Expansions combined with other expansion will create questions and loopholes, we haven't thought about. Therefore we can't answer those.
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We will see. Abbot looks like points are given in phase 3 by rules.
"On your turn, if you do not place a meeple during the 2. Placing a meeple phase, you may instead return your already-placed abbot to your supply. If you do so, you score immediately" - "immediately"
Also: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4927.msg73470#msg73470
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So bad news. Yesterday we has a long discussion on Hig Discord about rules for messages. We are glad, that this mini is part of Big Box 2017, and for this HiG answered couple of question.
But mine conclusion for it is:
Receiving Message is bonus for player who score during phase Scoring feature - red phase in printed rules.
All other bonuses scored on different phase (Place tile / Place wood) are not consider for get message to current player!
So for receiving message is important, that your scoring meeples are moving and finish on dark space of scoring board only in Phase Scoring a Feature (movement before this phase is not relevant).
It's mean you your score will be consider if:
1. You get bonus +3 for Fairy when finished feature with your meeple with Fairy is assignet to one of your meeple on that feature
(etc)
You will not receiving message and your movement will not be consider for receiving message:
1. +1 Fairy bonus on begin of turn
2. Bonuses for Fruit bearing trees - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing of Meeple)
3. Bonus for proper placing wind rose tile in correct quadrant (half of board - depends on version of windroses) - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing a Tile)
(etc)
So big mess.
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.
Actually, I think this is great!
- We can forget all this scoring round thing and remember only "message is at the end of scoring phase". That's a lot simplier to explain and understand
- Only one message opportunity per round prevents the message chains that could be problematic as explained earlier :D
For the abbot, I'm pretty sure it's scored during phase 2 :yellow-meeple:
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That's true. But HiG devide game to 4 phases.
Message receiving is defined in phase 3. So by interpretation of rules by HiG it's mean, that only scoring defined in phase 3 (almost can be started in different phase, but defined in phase 3, like Abbot) are consifer for receive a message at end of phase 3.
It's mean, that any scoring in rules written in Phase 1 (tile placement), Phase 2 (meeple placement), Phase 4 (Bazaar action)
are not relevant for receiving message.
This is fridays statement, so we will see future negotiations :D
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That's true. But HiG devide game to 4 phases.
Message receiving is defined in phase 3. So by interpretation of rules by HiG it's mean, that only scoring defined in phase 3 (almost can be started in different phase, but defined in phase 3, like Abbot) are consifer for receive a message at end of phase 3.
It's mean, that any scoring in rules written in Phase 1 (tile placement), Phase 2 (meeple placement), Phase 4 (Bazaar action)
are not relevant for receiving message.
This is fridays statement, so we will see future negotiations :D
I like those clarifications. Only the fact that abbot removed in phase 2 is still counted seems odd to me...
Now the question... Do the robbers also consider only phase 3 scorings? ;D
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So bad news. Yesterday we has a long discussion on Hig Discord about rules for messages. We are glad, that this mini is part of Big Box 2017, and for this HiG answered couple of question.
But mine conclusion for it is:
Receiving Message is bonus for player who score during phase Scoring feature - red phase in printed rules.
All other bonuses scored on different phase (Place tile / Place wood) are not consider for get message to current player!
So for receiving message is important, that your scoring meeples are moving and finish on dark space of scoring board only in Phase Scoring a Feature (movement before this phase is not relevant).
It's mean you your score will be consider if:
1. You get bonus +3 for Fairy when finished feature with your meeple with Fairy is assignet to one of your meeple on that feature
(etc)
You will not receiving message and your movement will not be consider for receiving message:
1. +1 Fairy bonus on begin of turn
2. Bonuses for Fruit bearing trees - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing of Meeple)
3. Bonus for proper placing wind rose tile in correct quadrant (half of board - depends on version of windroses) - this scoring is defined in phase (Placing a Tile)
(etc)
So big mess.
Due to Ringmaster issue with German Monasteries I'm affraid to ask how is solving message: Score smallest monastery when plaing German monastery - I suppose answer will be: you get always 2 points because German monastery is not Basic Game Monastery.
Are you going to post the detailed questions and answers you had with HiG about that matter?
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We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.
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We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.
Thanks for the info.
It hope the abbot points if removed during plase 2, place a meeple, is not considered by messages. It'd be strange and more difficult to explain and understand otherwise :yellow-meeple:
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HiG is interpreting the rules as follows:
1) Actions described in a phase happen in that phase. This is not true in all cases:
- The fairy point at the beginning of a turn is described in 1. Placing a tile. (Scored immediately)
- Peasant revolt scoring is described in 1. Placing a tile. (Score immediately)
- Removing the abbot is described in 3. Scoring a feature. (Triggered in 2. Placing a tile and scored in 3. Scoring a feature?)
- Fruit-bearing trees actions are described in 2. Scoring a meeple. (Scored here?)
- Scoring an acrobat pyramid is described in 3. Scoring a feature. (Triggered in 2. Scoring a meeple and scored in 3. Scoring a feature?)
- Scoring a shepherd's flock in described in 1. Placing a tile. (Scored here?)
2) Players always score in 3. Scoring a feature. However, some actions like scoring the fairy point happens in 1. Placing a tile.
3) We used the removal of the abbot as a reference case. The rules can be read with two different points of view:
a) HiG's current position: you trigger the scoring of the abbot in 2. Placing a meeple but you score the points in 3. Scoring a feature.
- Evidence #1: HiG base their response on the phase used to describe the action in Big Box 7 (2017). The previous rules from 2014 didn't asign to the scoring phase.
- Issue #1: The box does not correspond to 3. Scoring a feature. It is seems more like a combination of rules. The base game supplemental rules did not have a clear separation for these two types of scoring.
- Issue #2: The scoring happens after the movement of the dragon, so if the abbot is eaten, you lose the points. So how can you trigger a scoring that can be cancelled by the dragon? It doesn't make much sense to me.
(https://i.imgur.com/FmhWKMR.png)
b) CAR/WICA's current position: you score immediately in 2. Placing a meeple so the dragon has no effect.
- Evidence #1: This approach was clarified by Geor Wild in 3/2015.
- Evidence #2: The turn sequence summary in Big Box 6 (2017) includes this action in 2. Placing a meeple.
(https://i.imgur.com/E7b73NZ.png)
So as you can see there are a number of issues to solve here, and a number od questions to ask to get this clarified. HiG are contradicting themselves.
A separate issue is when robbers and messages are handles. In the turn sequence above, you can see several issues:
- If the abbot is scored in 2. Placing a meeple, it would require to consider also robbers, and it would contradict current's HiG point of view and you can score the abbot and fool the dragon.
- If messages (in the new rules, as HiG called them) are handled at the end this would contradict Geog Wild's clarifications, but it would a simpler version of our current understanding of the tuen sequence (and a relief for everyone).
Note: The abbot can be flier but wasn't displayed correctly in the turn summary above. HiG forgot and never corrected this issue has been replicated everywhre, as clarified by Kettlefish. She participated in the proofreading team. (In BB4 they forgot to include the crop circles action...)
EDIT: Included more info on the rules for the abbot in BB6.
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We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.
Thanks for the info.
It hope the abbot points if removed during plase 2, place a meeple, is not considered by messages. It'd be strange and more difficult to explain and understand otherwise :yellow-meeple:
Come what may, messages will consider all points during the active player's turn. The only thing relevant to them is final position on the scoreboard of the scoring figures moving during this turn.
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I want to see what HiG exactly said; word by word.
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I want to see what HiG exactly said; word by word.
Do you have an account on Discord? It would be more straight forward than trying to copy over the whole conversation...
It started as a question about what points should be considered to send a meeple to Carcassonne. And, all of a sudden, the alarms started to blare when Johannes (HiG) said that the acrobat pyramid scoring is triggered in 2. Placing a meeple but it is actually scored in 3. Scoring a feature...
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No, and I do not want to own one.
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Sign up and I will pass you the link to the server...
Here you are an invite expiring in 24h:
https://discord.gg/cDMDuaWb (https://discord.gg/cDMDuaWb)
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I do not want to use Discord.
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We detected some discrepancies in these clarifications about messges. It traces back to the scoring of the abbot. So we have to revisit them because the interpretation of written rules for the abbot does not match the turn sequence included at the end of Big Box 6 rules.
Thanks for the info.
It hope the abbot points if removed during plase 2, place a meeple, is not considered by messages. It'd be strange and more difficult to explain and understand otherwise :yellow-meeple:
Come what may, messages will consider all points during the active player's turn. The only thing relevant to them is final position on the scoreboard of the scoring figures moving during this turn.
Ok ;)
So we're back at what we used to consider as CI rule, drawing message at the end of turn, and considering any points during the turn?
Also, the total turn points has to be positive (losing 3 points and earning two with the same scoring figure, landing on a dark spase, doesn't grant a message as the figure's total movement was backward) ?
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Also, if everything is scored during phase 3, I guess this also changes robber points management ? ???
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There is a glitch, because the fairy point and peasant revolts seem to be scored at the beginning of your turn... So you should include tobbers in any scoring.
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I do not want to use Discord.
Here you are... Copied and pasted from the Discord window terrible formatting, of course. Read and cry!
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So we have a little of an issue: We can only ask about Messages/Robbers interacting with the expansions in Big Box 6.
What happens with the fairy point? - Prime Directive
What happens with robber points with other points? - Prime Directive
So my only hope is to clarify three things:
- Determine how the abbot scored and its interaction with the dragon
- Clarify how robbers interact with the scoring of the abbot (if its scoring does not happen in 3. Scoring a feature finally)
- Determine when each scoring event happening in 1. Placing a tile and 2. Placing a meeple take place.
So the abbot is our Obi Wan. And we will have to deal any misunderstanding of the rules on our end or their end.
And I have to revisit all this (see previous post) with them if thy don't ban me in the process.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5016.msg74414#msg74414 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5016.msg74414#msg74414)
I pushed them hard to get all the clarifications about halfling and the double-sized tiles. I'll be in their black list sooner or later. :o
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The Abbot is considered part of the Base Game by HiG...
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Yes... This is our only way to deal with the issue. Whatever the response is regarding the abbot, we will have to extrapolate for the other expansions. And nailing down the scoring events in the turn sequence is the corner stone to see how to appraoch the whole issue.
So we are allowed to ask about:
- Interactions between expansions within a Big Box
- Interaction between major expansions
- Clarifications about the rules of any expansion (major or minor)
We cannot ask about interactions with minor expansions... unless they feel magnanimous and provide a hint.
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Good luck with getting those clarifications :yellow-meeple:
Based on the previous clarifications, I hope either:
- EVERYTHING is scored during phase 3.
OR
- HiG comes back on their previous clarifications and we keep the scoring during turn sequence for every scoring
But it would be strange (and incomprehensible for any non expert) to have some things scored in the phase their action took place, and some other with delayed scoring...
And... If everything is scored during phase 3... Do we score in any order we want, or do we still have to keep a strict scoring order between phase 1, 2, bonus before and after feature scoring...? ???
What of bazar and catapult points? (well, I guess it isn't gonna be possible to get a clarification about this...) :yellow-meeple:
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Not everything is scored in 3. Scoring a feature.
The fairy point is scored immediately in 1. Placing a tile as per Johannes. But he won't respond how this is handled with messages and robbers (Prime Directive). So...
So not everything is delayed until 3. Scoring a feature. And it seems Peasant revolts should be scored immediately as well...
If the delayed score approach has to be applied, the first scoring event should be the wind rose 3 points, since it is the first one associated to a tile placed. But this is a wild guess...
If you check the Turn Sequence in BB4 or BB6, you'll se Messages at the end after scoring, so the Catapult also happens after scoring. Messages should happen after the Catapult then, and before a bazaar.
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Not everything is scored in 3. Scoring a feature.
The fairy point is scored immediately in 1. Placing a tile as per Johannes. But he won't respond how this is handled with messages and robbers (Prime Directive). So...
So not everything is delayed until 3. Scoring a feature. And it seems Peasant revolts should be scored immediately as well...
That's gonna be a mess to apply :'(
If you check the Turn Sequence in BB4 or BB6, you'll se Messages at the end after scoring, so the Catapult also happens after scoring. Messages should happen after the Catapult then, and before a bazaar.
Seems good to me ;)
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Yes... This is our only way to deal with the issue. Whatever the response is regarding the abbot, we will have to extrapolate for the other expansions. And nailing down the scoring events in the turn sequence is the corner stone to see how to appraoch the whole issue.
So we are allowed to ask about:
- Interactions between expansions within a Big Box
- Interaction between major expansions
- Clarifications about the rules of any expansion (major or minor)
We cannot ask about interactions with minor expansions... unless they feel magnanimous and provide a hint.
Sorry guys, but I don't even know why you care about anything that guy is saying. His replies made clear that he is not even aware of the clarifications given in the past. Why should we care about his bla bla bla if he has not taken into account any interactions with the smaller expansions that were released by... guess what, the company he is representing and you are asking clarifications from...
And on top of that, we have to be careful and thankful, otherwise we might end up on a blacklist. We might be punished and we won't get any answers anymore...
Give me a break...
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What are Johannes's past contributions to Carcassonne game?
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Also, these recent clarifications are discussed by HiG or decided by one single person who probably does not know the rules very well?
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Well. This guy was set by HiG to resolve question about rules question on Official Discord Channel.
He answer question of Discord at least of 26. August 2020 - maybe earlier, but I register there at +- these days. So I can't proof it also before, (if discord show messages also before registration or not) :D
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Here you can find some info on key people at HiG... :)
https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html (https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html)
We have been talking to Johannes and Freddy on Discord.
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http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1609.msg20881#msg20881
About acrobats: "Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid." From this sentence you can understand that acrobats are scored in step 2, even if this sentence is placed in "3. Scoring a feature" section.
"You trigger it in Step 2, but still get the points in step 3". --2021
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Here you can find some info on key people at HiG... :)
https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html (https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html)
We have been talking to Johannes and Freddy on Discord.
Point proven, I guess!
Carcassonne is not even mentioned in both people's biography or favorite games, so what do they know?
I am sure there is much more expertise combined in this forum than in the whole HiG team.
I don't say that all the clarifications that were provided lately are bad. Some of them would make the game easier to understand and to explain. But it is impossible to create overall rules if you are ignoring some of the game elements. If you release a game or an expansion, it is normal that you think about the interaction of all elements of the game. And you provide a decent service to the fans and customers that are paying for it.
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http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1609.msg20881#msg20881
About acrobats: "Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid." From this sentence you can understand that acrobats are scored in step 2, even if this sentence is placed in "3. Scoring a feature" section.
"You trigger it in Step 2, but still get the points in step 3". --2021
I'm okay with triggering in Phase 2 and scoring in Phase 3 but then Acrobats/Shepherds/Abbots should be removed when the action is triggered so no side effects like the dragon can alter something already triggered. This is my point.
This also raises an additional question: If the scoring of the acrobats takes place in Phase 3, do they receive the 3-point fairy bonus? We know the abbot does not get the fairy bonus because you are not scoring the feature (it is still incomplete). So far:
- We were assuming the fairy scoring bonus only affected features scored in Phase 3, and acrobats where scored in Phase 2, so no 3 points for the fairy... What happens now?
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Hills & Sheep
"When you place a tile to expand your shepherd's field, first resolve the action 2. Placing a meeple as normal, then resolve one of the following two actions:" It is described at "1. Placing a tile".
The Fruit-Bearing Trees
"If you have deployed a meeple, you may now perform either one of the following two actions."
"Take the top-most fruit token from the tree tile (if available). Then, immediately score points according to the fruit token's value. The fruit token is then placed in front of you."
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http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=592.msg10167;topicseen#msg10167
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I think that shepherd scoring still occurs in 2C. Johannes only said that the shepherd scoring is considered if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne. So, if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne, you consider all points received in 1C-3C.
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I think that shepherd scoring still occurs in 2C. Johannes only said that the shepherd scoring is considered if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne. So, if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne, you consider all points received in 1C-3C.
I'll be Devil's Advocate hare. But I think that intention of Message is to give bonus not for players which scores but player which finished feature.
Their interpretation is that scoring message is defined in step 3. Scoring a Feature - so it's only for scoring here.
Simplifying of all steps only to 4 divisions are mayme not so usefull for us (players), but usefull for them (HiG) :D
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I think that shepherd scoring still occurs in 2C. Johannes only said that the shepherd scoring is considered if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne. So, if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne, you consider all points received in 1C-3C.
I'll be Devil's Advocate hare. But I think that intention of Message is to give bonus not for players which scores but player which finished feature.
Their interpretation is that scoring message is defined in step 3. Scoring a Feature - so it's only for scoring here.
Simplifying of all steps only to 4 divisions are mayme not so usefull for us (players), but usefull for them (HiG) :D
Message is only for active player, so of course it is for player who completes a feature, as non active players can not complete a feature, that's not new ???
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"This is a combination of expansion 3 and a mini, therefore not answered. Again a special combination that we can't consider."
I do not understand. This answer is longer than a "Yes" or "No".
My understanding:
Messages considers only 1A-3C or only 3B-3C; the message(s) is/are triggered at the end of step 3 ("You will get messages in each Step 3") (in all cases, only positive points, the last movement of the scoring meeple or messenger).
Robbers consider 1A-4A and only positive points.
Sending a meeple in Carcassonne considers only 3B-3C or only 1C-3C (per "you cannot receive any points after placing
a tile, no matter if it is a feature being scored o any bonus (shepherd, 3-point for the fairy, ringmaster)").
(Robbers are bundled in 1A-4A)
(Prisoner ransom can happen anytime)
1A: Fairy point
1B: WoF points, Peasant Revolt points
1C. Wind rose points
2B-1: Removal of acrobats or abbots (no points; confuse, per "But artists (acrobats) are scored in Step 2?"
"You trigger it in Step 2, but still get the points in step 3"
"About removing and scoring the abbot: "This scoring occurs immediately during the 2. Placing a meeple
phase when the abbot is removed. This effectively protects the abbot from the dragon and produces a scoring round for Messages. Afterwards, the normal scoring phase occurs. (3/2015)")
2C. Fruit points, shepherd points (but it is unsure if they are placed here or in 3B; printed rules seem to say 2C, but here it is mentioned that Carcassonne considers all points from step 3, that Carcassonne also considers shepherd points and "in order to send a meeple to Carcassonne you cannot receive any points after placing a tile"; also "This is a combination of expansion 3 and a mini, therefore not answered. Again a special combination that we can't consider.")
3B:
Bonus scoring (pre): Watchtower, Tollhouse
Feature scoring: City, Road, Monastery, Castle, etc.
Bonus scoring (post): Markets of Leipzig, Fairy 3 points, Ringmaster points, Teacher, Darmstadt Church bonus
Abbot points (if removed in 2B-1; confuse), Acrobat points (if removed in 2B-1; confuse)
3C: Circus scoring
After 3C; before 4A: Messages
I want to find out Klaus-Jürgen Wrede's (the creator of Base Game and more), kettlefish's (who presented on CarcassonneCentral a lot of official clarifications from Georg Wild) and Georg Wild's (whose previous official clarifications on this topic are now contradicted by Johannes) opinions about these clarifications (although probably is "nearly impossible").
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I want to find out Klaus-Jürgen Wrede's (the creator of Base Game and more), kettlefish's (who presented on CarcassonneCentral a lot of official clarifications from Georg Wild) and Georg Wild's (whose previous official clarifications on this topic are now contradicted by Johannes) opinions about these clarifications (although probably is "nearly impossible").
Of course imposible. Georg is not working for HiG anymore, so we have to work with that what we have.
HiG made a strong line between C1 rules and C2 rules. For me, it's about players, how they'll play game. Official rules, for both C1/C2 in BigBox are clear.
You can Draw message once.
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Yesterday I had a long monologue with HiG on Discord after the issue with the scoring events during the turn sequence showed up again...
* I included in my posts a long explanation on how the shepherd actions in Exp.9 should be interpreted from reading the rules in English and German and from the Turn Sequence in Big Box 5, where the shepherd actions are included in Phase 2.
* I also showed them how misleading the rules for the abbot are, and also cross referenced them to the Turn Summary in Big Box 6 that shows the abbot removal happening in Phase 2.
* Additionally, I showed them how confusing the rules about the dragon are in Exp. 3 (volcano and dragon tiles) and demonstrated that Step 1b should be Step 2b accoring the German wording of the rules and the Turn Sequence in Big Box 3.
As per today's reply, it seems that the HiG team are going to sit down and discuss all these dark spots in the rules in order to decide what clarifications are needed. I cross my fingers... ;D
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Yesterday I had a long monologue with HiG on Discord after the issue with the scoring events during the turn sequence showed up again...
* I included in my posts a long explanation on how the shepherd actions in Exp.9 should be interpreted from reading the rules in English and German and from the Turn Sequence in Big Box 5, where the shepherd actions are included in Phase 2.
* I also showed them how misleading the rules for the abbot are, and also cross referenced them to the Turn Summary in Big Box 6 that shows the abbot removal happening in Phase 2.
* Additionally, I showed them how confusing the rules about the dragon are in Exp. 3 (volcano and dragon tiles) and demonstrated that Step 1b should be Step 2b accoring the German wording of the rules and the Turn Sequence in Big Box 3.
As per today's reply, it seems that the HiG team are going to sit down and discuss all these dark spots in the rules in order to decide what clarifications are needed. I cross my fingers... ;D
Well done Meepledrone! :yellow-meeple:
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Yesterday I had a long monologue with HiG on Discord after the issue with the scoring events during the turn sequence showed up again...
* I included in my posts a long explanation on how the shepherd actions in Exp.9 should be interpreted from reading the rules in English and German and from the Turn Sequence in Big Box 5, where the shepherd actions are included in Phase 2.
* I also showed them how misleading the rules for the abbot are, and also cross referenced them to the Turn Summary in Big Box 6 that shows the abbot removal happening in Phase 2.
* Additionally, I showed them how confusing the rules about the dragon are in Exp. 3 (volcano and dragon tiles) and demonstrated that Step 1b should be Step 2b accoring the German wording of the rules and the Turn Sequence in Big Box 3.
As per today's reply, it seems that the HiG team are going to sit down and discuss all these dark spots in the rules in order to decide what clarifications are needed. I cross my fingers... ;D
Finally! ;)
Curious to know what will be the outcome...
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Well. I need to tell, that we start some simple question with usual answer: Out of answer (mini vs. large expansion).
Then Meepledrone bring a star fleet with large guns and pul maybe 20 questions depends on previous answer where previous Clarification were against rules or opened devil's gate to unsolved situations on standard large expansions.
So there is very big mess in C2 rules like:
Step 1: Place Tile (Green part of rules)
- Imagine you placed tile with dragon symbol
- You are able to place by rules a meeple - which is Step 2.
Step 1b: Dragon moves (Brown part of rules)
Step 2: Place Meeple (Blue part of rules)
You can do a lot of stuff with meeples. OPS! (
You can not, because Step 2 was alredy finished because of Dragon moves which is Step 1b
Step 3: Scoring a Feature (Red part of rules)
Wanted to finish scoring of Abbot or Pyramid.
Where they are! I told in Place meeple that I'm scoring them, but Dragon was hungry \nd eat them. They are gone!
So questions started with smile of HiG that this will be easy, we will use Prime directive - "Mini is based for basic game", and we will not answer question about mini in large expansio, that smile is lost now.
Well done @Meepledrone
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So there is very big mess in C2 rules.
Not only in the rules >:D
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Yesterday I had a long monologue with HiG on Discord after the issue with the scoring events during the turn sequence showed up again...
* I included in my posts a long explanation on how the shepherd actions in Exp.9 should be interpreted from reading the rules in English and German and from the Turn Sequence in Big Box 5, where the shepherd actions are included in Phase 2.
* I also showed them how misleading the rules for the abbot are, and also cross referenced them to the Turn Summary in Big Box 6 that shows the abbot removal happening in Phase 2.
* Additionally, I showed them how confusing the rules about the dragon are in Exp. 3 (volcano and dragon tiles) and demonstrated that Step 1b should be Step 2b accoring the German wording of the rules and the Turn Sequence in Big Box 3.
As per today's reply, it seems that the HiG team are going to sit down and discuss all these dark spots in the rules in order to decide what clarifications are needed. I cross my fingers... ;D
No news?
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No answer to the questions... Just that they need to sit down and discuss the rules since there are a lot of dependencies.
I volunteered to send them a document with friction points in the rules so they speed up the process. Working on it but it is taking some time. Very busy currently at work and trying to update WICA in parallel...
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Still no answer?
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Nope. They said they were busy...
Still waiting for answers to 2 questions about bazaars (no Primer Directive applicable) and a question to clarify the scoring of roads looping back to a German castle.
The deep issues regarding scoring in other phases than 3. Scoring a feature and Messages represent an issue that will require some more time and a thorough analysis.
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!?
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There was an anwer for the roads looping back to a German castle. You may find it here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693)
Regarding bazaars, they also provided an answer to the two questions I posted, but the second reply was most strange, so I asked again to verify it:
* The first answer confirmed that the interpretation of the auction rules in WICA. The rules were ambiguous about who starts the next auction after the previous one is completed. Here you can find the rules for auctions just in case:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#4._Host_a_bazaar_auction (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#4._Host_a_bazaar_auction)
* The second answer is about double turns during a bazaar round. Any additional bazaars placed during a bazaar round (no matter if purchased or drawn in a builder turn) are ignored altogether. No problem, however they added a comment about the sequence of builder turns that was weird: "After all auctioned tiles have been placed, you draw the double-turn tiles." So I wanted to double check it, since this would mean that double turns in bazaars are handled in a special way breaking the normal turn sequence for double turns.
I hope to have some final clarification soon and post both answers together. ;)
Finally, about messages we have no more information besides they assume there is one round of messages per turn... What we don't know if this should happen twice in a double-turn... I would say yes, but who knows? If so, It happens after 3. Scoring a feature but should it happen between the Catapult and Bazaars? Easter Nests are scored at that point too...
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It is useless if no interview with KJW is provided.
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;D ;D ;D
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It is useless if no interview with KJW is provided.
+1 from me Dan
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It is useless if no interview with KJW is provided.
+1 from me Dan
;D ;D ;D
+1 from me too! :yellow-meeple:
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There was an anwer for the roads looping back to a German castle. You may find it here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693)
Regarding bazaars, they also provided an answer to the two questions I posted, but the second reply was most strange, so I asked again to verify it:
* The first answer confirmed that the interpretation of the auction rules in WICA. The rules were ambiguous about who starts the next auction after the previous one is completed. Here you can find the rules for auctions just in case:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#4._Host_a_bazaar_auction (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#4._Host_a_bazaar_auction)
* The second answer is about double turns during a bazaar round. Any additional bazaars placed during a bazaar round (no matter if purchased or drawn in a builder turn) are ignored altogether. No problem, however they added a comment about the sequence of builder turns that was weird: "After all auctioned tiles have been placed, you draw the double-turn tiles." So I wanted to double check it, since this would mean that double turns in bazaars are handled in a special way breaking the normal turn sequence for double turns.
I hope to have some final clarification soon and post both answers together. ;)
Finally, about messages we have no more information besides they assume there is one round of messages per turn... What we don't know if this should happen twice in a double-turn... I would say yes, but who knows? If so, It happens after 3. Scoring a feature but should it happen between the Catapult and Bazaars? Easter Nests are scored at that point too...
No newer news?
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Nope. I'm posting one new question each week. No answers yet but they replied a few days ago that answers will come eventually.
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In progress?
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After posting a question per week for around two months, they asked me to send all my questions together by email. So it took me some time to put all my questions together in one file that I finally sent to HiG last week.
This question was included in my list. :D
I hope they reply soon, or at least in several installments, since they have a lot a work ahead. ;)
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IfHiG would translate and write WICA...
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We would be so bored at home... ;)