German Monasteries interactions

[obervet]

Here are a couple of questions regarding the German Monasteries. I have my suspicions as to the answers, but it would be good for HiG to weigh in. (Hint, hint, kettlefish...    )

1) When playing with German Monasteries and Castles, if an Abbot is placed on a German Monastery in the region of a Castle, when is the monastery considered completed for the purposes of the Castle? Is it treated as a normal cloister, so the 9 tile zone is considered the completion? Based on the rules for the Castle, this would be my interpretation.

2) When playing with German Monasteries and Cults/Shrines, if an Abbot is placed on a German Monastery next to a Cult Place/Shrine with a follower (heretic), is the Abbot involved in a challenge? My thought is that there is no challenge, since the rules for the Cult Place/Shrine specifically mention that the challenge is laid down to the monk (not the abbot).



Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.0

[kettlefish]

1) A German Monastery with an Abbot:
The scoring take place at the end of the game in the final scoring phase.

If a follower is at the end of the game on a castle - the follower gets no points for the final scoring.

-------------------
A German Monastery with a monk:
The scoring take place when it is finished during the game.

The follower on the castle gets also the points during the game.

An unfinished German Monastery with a monk at the final scoring:
The monk gets all the points for the unfinshed monastery.

The follower on the castle gets no points in the final scoring, because the monastery is not finished...

[kettlefish]

2) We have at CarcF the same question.
I have sent an email to Georg Wild - HiG - last week.
I hope I will get in the next days some answers.

[asparagus]

Here are a couple of questions regarding the German Monasteries. I have my suspicions as to the answers, but it would be good for HiG to weigh in. (Hint, hint, kettlefish...    )

1) When playing with German Monasteries and Castles, if an Abbot is placed on a German Monastery in the region of a Castle, when is the monastery considered completed for the purposes of the Castle? Is it treated as a normal cloister, so the 9 tile zone is considered the completion? Based on the rules for the Castle, this would be my interpretation.

I would say the Abbot on a monastery never completes (it just scores at the end) and the castle does not score uncompleted features. So if the castle is still uncompleted at the end you get zero points for it.
 

2) When playing with German Monasteries and Cults/Shrines, if an Abbot is placed on a German Monastery next to a Cult Place/Shrine with a follower (heretic), is the Abbot involved in a challenge? My thought is that there is no challenge, since the rules for the Cult Place/Shrine specifically mention that the challenge is laid down to the monk (not the abbot).

That seems like the correct ruling. Otherwise the shrine would always win. Completing a shrine next to a well-placed abbot may not be that easy so the alternative ruling is interesting but probably would require an explicit house-rule at best.

However although there is no challenge between an abbot and a heretic, I would imagine an abbot counts as a monastery for placement purposes.

[Scott]

My suspicions, based on some of the other answers we got from HiG:

1. Monastery doesn't score until end of game, so Castle can't score from it.

2. I agree that there is likely no challenge, not merely because of the wording but because they are not vying for area control in the same way.

[Scott]

I just had a thought which doesn't appear to be addressed yet. We know that gaps in the landscape can block an abbot, but what about other monasteries? If I play an abbot in the same row or column as another player's abbot, when we score at the end of the game do we score through each other's monastery or do they block each other?

[Carcking]

I just had a thought which doesn't appear to be addressed yet. We know that gaps in the landscape can block an abbot, but what about other monasteries? If I play an abbot in the same row or column as another player's abbot, when we score at the end of the game do we score through each other's monastery or do they block each other?

It's a thought provoking question - but I don't think there is anything inherent about the Monastery feature that sets it apart from any other feature that would be scored through.

One Cloister adjacent to another does not block that particular tile from being included in the respective scoring for the Cloister, for example.

[obervet]

I just had a thought which doesn't appear to be addressed yet. We know that gaps in the landscape can block an abbot, but what about other monasteries? If I play an abbot in the same row or column as another player's abbot, when we score at the end of the game do we score through each other's monastery or do they block each other?

I assume since the rules specifically state that holes block the rows and columns, and that there aren't any other mentions of blocking, that rows and columns would still pass through other monasteries.

Could be an interesting house rule to promote defense against German Monasteries, though. (Of course, the monastery that you block will also be blocking your monastery, so it might just be a wash as far as points go.)

[Carcking]

Could be an interesting house rule to promote defense against German Monasteries, though. (Of course, the monastery that you block will also be blocking your monastery, so it might just be a wash as far as points go.)

You could house rule that you can block with some other feature...such as Cloisters and Abbeys. I actually like the idea the more I think about it, especially for mega-carc games, to limit the scoring. I would take the house-rule one step further and say that if your Monastery becomes blocked in all four directions you may score it mid-game and retrieve your follower. You may even do the blocking on your own Monastery! All tiles would count up to but not including the blocking Cloister or Abbey.

Thematically, the influence of the Monastery only reaches out to the nearest Cloister or Abbey. Any influence beyond that is delegated to the Cloister or Abbey so is not credited to the Monastery.

[coyote]

Could be an interesting house rule to promote defense against German Monasteries, though. (Of course, the monastery that you block will also be blocking your monastery, so it might just be a wash as far as points go.)

You could house rule that you can block with some other feature...such as Cloisters and Abbeys. I actually like the idea the more I thin about it, especially for mega-carc games, to limit the scoring. I would take the house-rule one step further and say that if your Monastery becomes blocked in all for directions you may score it mid-game and retrieve your follower. You may even do the blocking on your own Monastery! All tiles would count up to but not including the blocking Cloister or Abbey.

Thematically, the influence of the Monastery only reaches out to the nearest Cloister or Abbey. Any influence beyond that is delegated to the Cloister or Abbey so is not credited to the Monastery.

I like this, I think my wife and I will play with these rules in our next game. I was turned off by the high number of points we both got (over 80 each), since we're playing with *almost* every extension. Being able to block the scoring would be a neat tatic to take. (And we won't take the meeple back - scoring will be done at end of game, like normal. You lose a meeple, like a farmer..)

--Me.

[Carcking]

...(And we won't take the meeple back - scoring will be done at end of game, like normal. You lose a meeple, like a farmer..)

Oooh, that is harsh. Then you kinda have to be careful where/when you start a Monastery so it doesn't get blocked up with very few points. But it would definitely be a risk/reward decision to play one. I like that too! 

[farin]

What about The Flier and German Monasteries interaction.

Can another follower land on monastery alredy occupied by abbot? And then, is there still option ot place such second follower as monk?

[Carcking]

That is a great question farin. I hadn't thought of that. The cloister feature of the german monastery could still be considered open even if a follower is on the feature as an abbot. So both parts of your question are valid      ...I would reason "yes" to both, but I wonder what the official answers will be.

[Fritz_Spinne]

Very good question indeed. I think you can fly to a german monastery, the only question is: Do you can place the follower as abbot too?

The german rules of the flying machine say you have to "stand" the follower on a city, road or cloister, you cannot "lay" him on a field. Following this a flying follower could only put down as a monk.

In the english rules there is no differentiation, there is only "place" on a city, road or monastery and "not place" on a field.

[asparagus]

Very good question indeed. I think you can fly to a german monastery, the only question is: Do you can place the follower as abbot too?

The german rules of the flying machine say you have to "stand" the follower on a city, road or cloister, you cannot "lay" him on a field. Following this a flying follower could only put down as a monk.

In the english rules there is no differentiation, there is only "place" on a city, road or monastery and "not place" on a field.

Surely you have to follow the decision of the first person to place a follower. And if it is unoccupied for any reason you can choose.