Author Topic: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?  (Read 9613 times)

Gerry

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Does the River Itself Separate Two Farms?
« on: November 28, 2008, 04:55:48 pm »
   
I've scoured the printed rules and the annotated rules and searched the forum and haven't found any sentences that satisfy me on this question - can someone help out?

I know based on the CAR (question 30) and a post in this forum that a farm goes AROUND both the spring and the lake - that makes sense to me.

However, does is the river ITSELF a boundary between two farms?  According to the rules, "farms are bordered by roads, cities, and the edge of the area" - but it doesn't say anything specific about whether the river itself.  Depending on how the board grows around the river, this is a scenario that could come up...

Anyone point to something specific on this?  We've been playing that the river is PART of a farmer's land...  I can see arguments either way.

Thanks!


I spotted this old post in the archived forums today and as far as I can tell there is still no mention in the rules concerning rivers separating farms.  You would think that with a 179 page CAR someone could find the space to say "The river does or does not separate a farm".   

This particular item resonates with me because on my very first game with my wife and son, I disagreed with both of them over this very  point.  And the reason we had different opinions was because I was the only one of us who had actually taken the time to study the rules.

Is this officially documented anywhere?


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=932.0

Offline Paul

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2014, 07:21:12 PM »
My best guess would be that from their perspective it's kinda applied that it does seperate the fields.

I did find proof, though in CAR v7.02 at page 63 annotation 172, describing one of the river tiles with a city over it:

172 The city bridge does not separate field segments. Only the river separates the field segments on this tile. Thus, there are 2 field segments on this tile. [This is logical, as similar city bridges in other expansions such as Abbey & Mayor do not divide the city underneath. – Chris O.] (1/2013)
World record holder for a single game of Carcassonne using 10 007 tiles!

Gerry

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2014, 07:33:37 PM »
Yes well I am still using the CAR (V. 5.0B9)  I downloded when I first got the game.  Who would think a board game would have so many rule updates.

I am not contesting that the river in practice separates a field.  It's just that when other items are explored in the rules in excruciating detail with diagrams showing in detail when a bush does or does not terminate a road it seems odd not to spell this out.

thanks Gerry

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 05:57:43 AM »
With the spring and the lake in River 1 the farm goes around them. The same with the spring in River 2.

There is a spring tile included with the GQ#11 expansions (12 tiles with no special rules) which has a road leading away from the spring. This was specifically to address the problem of the river creating huge fields as the farm doesn't spread over the road (obviously).

Offline Carcking

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 09:11:55 AM »
Gerry makes a good point which I believe should be addressed specifically in a direct way in the CAR...as one of the main goals of the CAR is clarity.

"This is The River expansion. The River feature in this expansion separates fields the same way Roads do..."


(I find it interesting that the only indication of this is found in an off-hand way buried in footnote 172 which clarifies another feature that one might assume separates fields (that city bridge). If it wasn't for that city bridge the River would not be clarified at all.)
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2014, 12:54:03 AM »
easy answer: a river is not a field - it is an other feature.

The rule says something like this: no follower can be placed on a river...

But the follower can be placed as a farmer, like usual.

In this sentences you see - that the river is a different feature than the field...

The river is blue and the field is green...

I don't see here a problem.

Gerry

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2014, 05:39:55 AM »
From the CAR v 7.0-2   Page 16

Farms are separated from each other by roads, cities and the edge of the playing field –
this is important during the final scoring.


Would it be so hard to include the river in this statement.

Again I fully accept that in practice the river does separate.

Also I really like the river feature in the game, so much so, that my Dragon  drowned under the river Mehrfleuss (when I printed off the river tiles and stuck them over my dragon tiles - in retrospect it might have been better to buy by a couple of extra mini expansions and use their tiles instead)

Offline Carcking

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2014, 11:37:56 AM »
easy answer: a river is not a field - it is an other feature.

The rule says something like this: no follower can be placed on a river...

But the follower can be placed as a farmer, like usual.

In this sentences you see - that the river is a different feature than the field...

The river is blue and the field is green...

I don't see here a problem.

Those are all round about attempts at saying what the official rules don't say...that the River divides Fields.

You or I don't see the problem because we are seasoned players and fans of Carcassonne. However, the absolute new beginner has no basis for making an assumption that the River divides Fields. The authors have presumed that it would or could be assumed. It is the job of the CAR to make such clarifications, and take away assumption.





Offline obervet

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2014, 01:19:44 PM »
Footnotes clarifying the river's division of farms have been added to the CAR.

Gerry

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 05:37:12 AM »
Footnotes clarifying the river's division of farms have been added to the CAR.

Great, thanks

Now all we need is an update to the CAR to determine if all the Carcassonne expansions separate a player from too much of their money :)

Offline rfielder

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 08:13:28 PM »
I don't understand the question....there would be no point in stating that a farm goes around the river end tiles, unless the river was the border of the farm.

If the river were not a farm border, then it would not go "around" the end tiles.
Robert Fielder
Brampton, Ontario, Canada  EST

Offline MrNumbers

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2014, 02:19:29 AM »
Good point by the way, rfielder!
Simply some people don't like "implied" things, they need that everything is written in the rules undoubtedly. Like the note in microwave oven manual that states you aren't allowed to dry a cat in it.
"I never lose. Either I win or I learn." (Nelson Mandela)

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2014, 02:39:59 AM »
Yeah, I am with the last two posts. I always thought the whole purpose of the river in the first place was to divide farms. Thus, the river divides farms :)

Offline Paul

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2014, 02:53:17 AM »
*singing*

In the river of Carcassonne
Where the fields divide
Building up a game start
For strategies to arise

(Sung to River of Babylon)

Sorry about this, but this thread I kept hearing this.  :@

I am at a junction regarding the rules, though. Without having read the rules I always knew they do divide. Yet still, odd it's not mentioned in an obvious showcase within the rules.

But, CAR has now been updated with this as an annotation I believe. Thank you for this!

 :meeple:

Offline Carcking

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Re: Does the River Separate Two Farms, is this stated anywhere in the CAR?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2014, 05:47:49 AM »
I don't understand the question....there would be no point in stating that a farm goes around the river end tiles, unless the river was the border of the farm.

If the river were not a farm border, then it would not go "around" the end tiles.

Haha - Congratulations! You have pointed out another way to say the River divides Fields, without actually saying it.  :(y)


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