Author Topic: Turn sequence  (Read 3749 times)

Offline asparagus

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Turn sequence
« on: June 16, 2014, 03:41:27 PM »
I have been thinking for sometime that all the Carcassonne rules could really do with being rewritten from scratch. You have the basic idea of placing a tile and then "taking an action". However the original rules don't say "take an action". They say "place a follower". And it is not always clear when an action is equivalent to placing a follower or not. I guess it is just too much to ask and perhaps it would do more damage than good.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=838.0

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 03:50:56 PM »
asparagus,
what do you mean with:
"taking an action"?
I have never read such a rule for Carcassonne.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 04:04:06 PM »
asparagus,
what do you mean with:
"taking an action"?
I have never read such a rule for Carcassonne.

precisely. I think the rules would be much clearer if they did use that language. Perhaps it is too late now however. I suppose "moving the wood" is the phrase that has this role, but I don't think it is a good choice.

Offline obervet

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 06:03:57 AM »
I have been thinking for sometime that all the Carcassonne rules could really do with being rewritten from scratch. You have the basic idea of placing a tile and then "taking an action". However the original rules don't say "take an action". They say "place a follower". And it is not always clear when an action is equivalent to placing a follower or not. I guess it is just too much to ask and perhaps it would do more damage than good.

This is an interesting point, asparagus. The way the game has evolved, you're right, it would now make a lot more sense to consider the "follower placement" phase as the "action" phase, as you could place a tower segment, move the fairy, etc. instead of actually placing a follower. Obviously, the initial terminology was just fine originally, when there was only the base set and none of the more confusing elements.

As you also note, trying to completely rewrite the rules would probably be a disaster. It might add clarity to those who use them, but how do you distribute that info to all of the people who already own the game? Because the reality is that the vast majority of users are casually playing the game, don't know about the existence of the CAR, and wouldn't care about all of the nuances that excite us anyway. (I'm thinking about my parents as prime examples here -- they play with the few expansions that they like best, they know the rules for those expansions, and life's too short to care about precise timing rules. If there's a question, they just resolve it in a way that makes sense to them.) A whole new set of rules may be met with apathy by most users and could even alienate a number of the casual users, so it's probably not worth it.

It's an important point for prospective game designers, though. Precise terminology is critical, and if you think you might want to add expansions in the future, you better try not to back yourself into a corner with the mechanics.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 12:16:29 PM »
I have been thinking for sometime that all the Carcassonne rules could really do with being rewritten from scratch. You have the basic idea of placing a tile and then "taking an action". However the original rules don't say "take an action". They say "place a follower". And it is not always clear when an action is equivalent to placing a follower or not. I guess it is just too much to ask and perhaps it would do more damage than good.

This is an interesting point, asparagus. The way the game has evolved, you're right, it would now make a lot more sense to consider the "follower placement" phase as the "action" phase, as you could place a tower segment, move the fairy, etc. instead of actually placing a follower. Obviously, the initial terminology was just fine originally, when there was only the base set and none of the more confusing elements.

As you also note, trying to completely rewrite the rules would probably be a disaster. It might add clarity to those who use them, but how do you distribute that info to all of the people who already own the game? Because the reality is that the vast majority of users are casually playing the game, don't know about the existence of the CAR, and wouldn't care about all of the nuances that excite us anyway. (I'm thinking about my parents as prime examples here -- they play with the few expansions that they like best, they know the rules for those expansions, and life's too short to care about precise timing rules. If there's a question, they just resolve it in a way that makes sense to them.) A whole new set of rules may be met with apathy by most users and could even alienate a number of the casual users, so it's probably not worth it.

It's an important point for prospective game designers, though. Precise terminology is critical, and if you think you might want to add expansions in the future, you better try not to back yourself into a corner with the mechanics.

You have expressed with exquisite clarity what I was trying to say. Have a merit.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 01:47:10 PM »
We do have the Order of Play summary that starts on page 180. Perhaps, since that is not an official document, we can incorporate the "Actions Phase" terminology into that document in step 4, currently entitled Move the Wood.

Maybe something like:

Step 4: Actions Phase - "Moving the Wood"

I'm looking at the Step 4 now and I'm puzzled why we broke that up into 6 Phases. Why not just 2? The first 5 phases could all be in Phase 1 (You may do one and only one of the following:) - then list all the options that are currently broken into 5 phases. We can eliminate the if/then condition statements, which can be confusing.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 01:49:32 PM by Carcking »
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline asparagus

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 01:55:00 PM »
I'm looking at the Step 4 now and I'm puzzled why we broke that up into 6 Phases. Why not just 2? The first 5 phases could all be in Phase 1 (You may do one and only one of the following:) - then list all the options that are currently broken into 5 phases. We can eliminate the if/then condition statements, which can be confusing.

Yes I was wondering the same. I have to say I had assumed that this all hinged on a careful reading of the rules, but I had not so far had the strength to figure that out. In any case I have dodgy first editions for the base set and several expansions, so I am not even particularly well equipped.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 02:05:24 PM »
And what is with the "actions" of the dispatches, the bazaar, the catapult?
(I named such things functions of a tile for example)
-----------------------------------
The name of this part of the players turn is "move wood" (see all the BigBoxes - example RGG BigBox3 from 2010 - page 15)

here is a link to the BigBox3 rule at CarcF:
BigBox 2010

Big Box3 from 2010 - page 15
Turn sequence

2. Move wood
-------------------
This is a part of the Carcassonne rule
-------------------
an action is also to draw and place a tile, also to move wood, also to score (espesially with game play Mini Robbers and Mini Dispatches)....
I am very confused to give new "names " like "action" for "move wood".
You will never find action - please be carefully with new words at Carcassonne.
Perhaps we need the word "action" some day, because in a new expansion HiG uses such word for something in the game...
------------------------
But all this discussion has not much to do with the River II itself.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:08:01 PM by kettlefish »

Offline asparagus

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 02:09:41 PM »
here is a link to the BigBox3 rule at CarcF:
BigBox 2010

Big Box3 from 2010 - page 15
Turn sequence

2. Move wood
-------------------
This is a part of the Carcassonne rule
-------------------

If the phrase "Move wood" is in original documents then obviously it takes precedence over any brainwaves bouncing off my skull-walls.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 03:49:15 PM »
I am very confused to give new "names " like "action" for "move wood".
You will never find action - please be carefully with new words at Carcassonne.
Perhaps we need the word "action" some day, because in a new expansion HiG uses such word for something in the game...

Totally agree kettlefish - that's why I suggested to use it unofficially in the Order of Play summary - which is our own unofficial creation. I think putting it there does have value in that it will help close the loop for the reader's understanding that not all of the available move the wood actions are actually made of wood.

Offline obervet

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 06:11:24 AM »
I am very confused to give new "names " like "action" for "move wood".
You will never find action - please be carefully with new words at Carcassonne.
Perhaps we need the word "action" some day, because in a new expansion HiG uses such word for something in the game...

Totally agree kettlefish - that's why I suggested to use it unofficially in the Order of Play summary - which is our own unofficial creation. I think putting it there does have value in that it will help close the loop for the reader's understanding that not all of the available move the wood actions are actually made of wood.

I can see some value in unofficially clarifying the "move wood" phase as an "action" phase, but like kettlefish notes, we have to be careful not to go too far with that and have to retract it later. The Order of Play summary would probably be the best place to play around with that idea; I'll have to think about the best way to do this.

Offline obervet

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 06:23:17 AM »
I'm looking at the Step 4 now and I'm puzzled why we broke that up into 6 Phases. Why not just 2? The first 5 phases could all be in Phase 1 (You may do one and only one of the following:) - then list all the options that are currently broken into 5 phases. We can eliminate the if/then condition statements, which can be confusing.

Yes I was wondering the same. I have to say I had assumed that this all hinged on a careful reading of the rules, but I had not so far had the strength to figure that out. In any case I have dodgy first editions for the base set and several expansions, so I am not even particularly well equipped.

That was a division of events that occurred early in my tenure on the CAR, I think with v6.1. Earlier versions, including v6.0, had three phases of move the wood which made a little more sense (place a follower, place a non-follower, place the phantom). When SkullOne developed the newest format, he evidently saw something in the timing rules that caused him to subdivide the move wood part as much as he did. I admit that I have no idea what that reasoning was and if re-joining some of the sections would cause any problems. It would certainly be a lot cleaner if we could put the sub-steps back together. I'll see if I can find any notes about his reasoning, and when I have time I'll go through rules to see if I can come up with any particular indications to keep the sub-sections separated.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 07:25:20 AM »
I personally don't use the turn summary in the CAR - it confuses me.
I only use the official turn sequence (see the BigBoxes), and I have no problems with it.

SkullOne is no more a member here at CarcC. So we can't ask him directly.

All this discussion goes to a new topic

Offline evmillan

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2014, 08:54:10 AM »
I think that Order of Play summary on CAR is very useful and it's a good guide when you start to play with new expansions.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Turn sequence
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 11:41:02 AM »
I think that Order of Play summary on CAR is very useful and it's a good guide when you start to play with new expansions.

Totally agree!  :(y)


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