Author Topic: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber  (Read 14323 times)

Offline Carcking

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 07:23:28 AM »
...
Cathedral -> monastery
...

We should be careful with the use of the word "monastery" as it now has become its own feature, separate from the "cloister". The more accurate statement here would be:

Cathedral -> cloister (or monastery that has been employed as a cloister).

Now, after I wrote this, I am curious if the Abbey has ever been clarified with regard to the City of Carcassonne...

I don't think there is a specific footnote regarding the Abbey in reference to the City. However, there are multiple other clarifications stating that an Abbey has all of the characteristics of a cloister (e.g. footnote 217, p. 73, CAR 7.0), so this would hold true for moving followers from the City as well.

There would have to be an assumption made that "has all of the characteristics of a cloister" would also explicitly mean it takes the name "cloister" as well, for the rules of the City to be applied as common knowledge. Otherwise we assume that the reader knows that features that go by names other than Road, City, Cloister and Farm are able to be entered from the City simply because they exhibit even all the characteristics of those features.

The Abbey and the Monastery may be the only examples we have to go by now but there may be others in the future. Perhaps the Shepherd's field is the next closest feature example we have. It has characteristics of the Farm but that does not grant the player the ability to enter it from the City...even if it somehow had all the characteristics of a Farm it is still a different feature than a Farm. Perhaps another good example is the Barn Farm.

Am I making sense? I'm trying to draw a distinction between "has all of the characteristics" and "actually IS the feature or takes the feature's name". I don't think it's safe to assume the "has all of the characteristics" feature can be entered from the City...therefore a clarification is warranted.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline obervet

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 08:27:55 AM »
There would have to be an assumption made that "has all of the characteristics of a cloister" would also explicitly mean it takes the name "cloister" as well, for the rules of the City to be applied as common knowledge. Otherwise we assume that the reader knows that features that go by names other than Road, City, Cloister and Farm are able to be entered from the City simply because they exhibit even all the characteristics of those features.

The Abbey and the Monastery may be the only examples we have to go by now but there may be others in the future. Perhaps the Shepherd's field is the next closest feature example we have. It has characteristics of the Farm but that does not grant the player the ability to enter it from the City...even if it somehow had all the characteristics of a Farm it is still a different feature than a Farm. Perhaps another good example is the Barn Farm.

Am I making sense? I'm trying to draw a distinction between "has all of the characteristics" and "actually IS the feature or takes the feature's name". I don't think it's safe to assume the "has all of the characteristics" feature can be entered from the City...therefore a clarification is warranted.

I agree that, at the very least, we need a confirmation that an abbey is (or is not) a cloister for the purposes of all game play mechanics, and that it would be prudent to add a footnote to the Count of Carcassonne section when we get the answer.

To extend this a bit further, what about shrines/cult places? Those are like cloisters but have some differences, so where do they fall for considerations of the City? And what about the (German) monasteries? At the end of the game during scoring, can a follower move from the Cathedral quadrant to a monastery (analogous to farm scoring)?

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 08:32:23 AM »
And what about the (German) monasteries? At the end of the game during scoring, can a follower move from the Cathedral quadrant to a monastery (analogous to farm scoring)?

Now there's a way to make the Count more interesting - I hadn't thought of playing it with the German monasteries!

Offline Carcking

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 12:18:59 PM »
...what about shrines/cult places? Those are like cloisters but have some differences...

Thanks obervet - that is one of the obvious examples I was looking for. The Shrine takes on the characteristics of a Cloister. Not all, but what's left out is so minor as to be seemingly irrelevant. (I can think of a couple of differences...such as escaping a besieged city, and the name of the follower being a heretic.) I think it was stated (officially?) even that Vineyards apply to the Shrine. Importantly, though, the name stays a Shrine. Has it been officially clarified that you can you enter a Shrine from the City? Whether you can or cannot the clarification is needed in the rules of the City so there is no guessing.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 12:34:40 PM »
Thanks obervet - that is one of the obvious examples I was looking for. The Shrine takes on the characteristics of a Cloister.

My philosophical view of Carcassonne is that there are four fundamental types of feature (defined topologically):
  • 0-dimensional point (monastery)
  • 1-dimensional line (road)
  • 2-dimensional area (city)
  • 2-dimensional anything leftover (field)
This is an abstract view but much more represents how I see the game. In my view any new feature should usually fall into one of these categories and should inherit any rule applying to the base type unless otherwise stated.

So an abbey is exactly a monastery except in how the tile is placed.
A German monastery with an abbot is exactly like a monastery except in how it is scored.
A shrine is exactly like a monastery except in where the tile can be placed and in its interactions with monasteries.

It is then the interactions between these expansions that I find fascinating. Whilst it is good to confirm every combination of the rules we should have faith that the decisions will accord with these principles.

Offline obervet

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 06:04:01 AM »
Honestly, I could see the answer to this question going either way. If it were my decision, I would say that all of the cloister-like structures would count for purposes of the City of Carcassonne, as my thought process is along the lines of asparagus's views in the previous post, and abbeys have already been defined as very much like cloisters (and perhaps are actually "cloisters with benefits"). However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

So, basically we will have to leave this in the capable hands of kettlefish to find out the whole truth.  :)

Offline asparagus

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 06:07:24 AM »
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

Offline obervet

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 06:27:17 AM »
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

They do still give points to farms, but they don't count as cities for the purposes of the King, and besieged cities that turn into castles no longer have the siege effect, so there are several clarifications that indicate that these are not cities. They are separate features that just happen to have one effect that is similar to those of cities.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 07:06:23 AM »
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

They do still give points to farms, but they don't count as cities for the purposes of the King, and besieged cities that turn into castles no longer have the siege effect, so there are several clarifications that indicate that these are not cities. They are separate features that just happen to have one effect that is similar to those of cities.


I think you have uncovered my philosophical bias. I want as few new terrain types as possible. Where I can I will interpret a feature as an existing type I will. I can still just about interpret a castle as a city - even if it is too much of a stretch for you. The gold mines fan expansion has point topology like monasteries but are clearly not monasteries but I am inclined to rebrand them as a type of monastery so that they can conform to my bias.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 08:04:27 AM »
However other clarifications (castles come to mind) have shown that names matter, as a castle is not just a special city, it is an entirely new feature.

I'm not sure I agree about this. Castle's are still modified cities. They still give a score to farms even it is not the normal one.

They do still give points to farms, but they don't count as cities for the purposes of the King, and besieged cities that turn into castles no longer have the siege effect, so there are several clarifications that indicate that these are not cities. They are separate features that just happen to have one effect that is similar to those of cities.


I think you have uncovered my philosophical bias. I want as few new terrain types as possible. Where I can I will interpret a feature as an existing type I will. I can still just about interpret a castle as a city - even if it is too much of a stretch for you. The gold mines fan expansion has point topology like monasteries but are clearly not monasteries but I am inclined to rebrand them as a type of monastery so that they can conform to my bias.
asparagus,
what has this discussion to do with this topic here "Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber"?
Please explain.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2014, 08:08:30 AM »
asparagus,
what has this discussion to do with this topic here "Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber"?
Please explain.

It started with whether a German monastery is a sort of monastery for Count of Carcassonne purposes and ended up about in what sense a castle is a city.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2014, 09:24:46 AM »
City of Carcassonne:

section: "Castle" - the followers in this section are placed into a "city" (follower as a knight).
The feature "castle" (castle token on top of a two half round city) is not a city - so here NO.

section: "Cathedral" - the followers in this section are placed on a cloister (follower as a monk).
The "German Monasteries" - only the function as a cloister (follower as a monk) - YES
The "German Monasteries" - the function as a "German Monastery" (follower as a abbot) - NO.

"Cult Places"  (German: Kultstaetten) - the cult places are a part of this complete 6th expansion. The rule of the Count of Carcassonne only tells us something about a "cloister" (German: Kloster). In my opinion is: NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 10:05:33 AM by kettlefish »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2014, 09:48:34 AM »
...
"Cult Places"  (German: Kultstaetten) - the cult places are a part of this complete 6th expansion. The rule of the Count of Carcassonne only tells us something about a "cloister" (German: Kloster). That means: NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.

I've looked at the homepage from Christian H. - Cult Places: YES.

Ok  - then YES.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 10:39:33 AM »
...
"Cult Places"  (German: Kultstaetten) - the cult places are a part of this complete 6th expansion. The rule of the Count of Carcassonne only tells us something about a "cloister" (German: Kloster). That means: NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.

I've looked at the homepage from Christian H. - Cult Places: YES.

Ok  - then YES.

I knew I had seen this somewhere - thanks for pointing this out kettlefish.

But also, we need to know about the Abbey. Can you enter an abbey from the City?

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2014, 10:44:55 AM »
Abbey - YES if this placement of that tile is the 9th (complete cloister with 9 tiles)


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