Author Topic: CAR v7.0 River II question  (Read 10218 times)

Offline Paul

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CAR v7.0 River II question
« on: June 09, 2014, 11:21:51 PM »
Reading all the rules for River II in zie CAR v7.0 it is still unclear just how it works under Preparations.

It says: The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...

The fork part,

1. Does a follower be allowed by 'the youngest player' to be placed on it
2. Or spring and fork tiles are placed and then players takes turn drawing and placing a river tile followed by optional follower to be placed on it.

It's quite confusing. We play option 2. above but still would like some clarification.

 :meeple:

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=828.0
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Offline jungleboy

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 11:51:54 PM »
It sounds to me like Option 1 is correct and that the youngest player can place a farmer on the fork tile. Otherwise, why specify that the youngest player plays the fork tile - why not just have the first two tiles placed and then start the game with the youngest player playing the third tile?

Offline Paul

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 12:20:56 AM »
It sounds to me like Option 1 is correct and that the youngest player can place a farmer on the fork tile. Otherwise, why specify that the youngest player plays the fork tile - why not just have the first two tiles placed and then start the game with the youngest player playing the third tile?

But that's the thing. It does not specify the youngest player is allowed to place a farmer. If someone has never played the game before, this would be even more confusing.

Then again, the android exozet game you can place a farmer on the fork which makes, just as you said, option 1 correct and we will vote on this next time we play at my house.
  Provided we actually play without a gazillion expansions.  ;D

Offline rfielder

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 06:59:04 AM »
Then again, the android exozet game you can place a farmer on the fork which makes, just as you said, option 1 correct and we will vote on this next time we play at my house.
JCoisterZone has the player that goes first place the fork, and it does allow a follower on the fork.

In other words, JCZ also goes by Option 1.
Robert Fielder
Brampton, Ontario, Canada  EST

Offline Carcking

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 03:01:24 PM »
This may be worth clarifying with HiG, or simply clarifying in the CAR that placing the fork tile has the full effect of a regular turn - all options of a regular turn are available to the player.

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I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline Jéré

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 04:08:36 PM »


Also Option 1 in Carcassonne iOS.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2014, 10:59:32 PM »
The German rule says:
Each player is allowed to place a figure (for example: follower as a farmer) on the just placed river tile, if the player like to do this.  The figures can't be placed directly on the river.

The youngest player is one of the players... - that means: opinion 1.

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« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:41:31 AM by kettlefish »

Offline evmillan

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 03:33:53 AM »
In the rules there is nothing that explicitly prohibits place the former, for me option 1.

Offline coyote

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 10:51:50 AM »
Interesting..
We just mix the fork in with the rest of the river tiles, and play it whenever it comes up.

So, nyah. :)

Offline Carcking

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 12:33:47 PM »
Interesting..
We just mix the fork in with the rest of the river tiles, and play it whenever it comes up.

So, nyah. :)

That is what we do too. We actually play with both rivers and include two forks in the mix so they come up at random.

But as for the original rules question - I think a parenthetical note of clarification would be good to eliminate the question for any newbies reading the CAR.

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 12:45:05 PM »
Interesting..
We just mix the fork in with the rest of the river tiles, and play it whenever it comes up.

So, nyah. :)
We do the same thing. Technically it's a house rule, but when I think about it literally, river's don't fork near springs (in fact, they usually don't fork at all, they combine). I rather hope a third River expansion some day adds actual rules to the river for follower placement, and also adds another fork. I know that there are numerous fan expansions out there regarding the river, but it's not the same.

Offline obervet

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 07:43:06 AM »
The third paragraph in the Preparation section of the CAR states:

Quote
As in the normal game, every player may deploy a follower as they wish. No follower can be deployed to the river itself.

Thus, the person who plays the fork can also play a follower.

Offline Paul

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 08:12:44 AM »
I appreciate all the answers, albeit quite unanimous.  ^-^

However, think we lost track of why there was a confusion in the first place.
  As my original post shows, the rule text itself from CAR is not that very clear on this matter.
  Even if there are annotations and clarifications elsewhere in the document, it should be obvious right there where I read it the first time, and where most of us will go when need an answer to this question: The River II fork placement section.

It could be as simple as replacing this:

The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...

with this:

The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork and then may place a farm on it. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...

 :meeple:

Offline obervet

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2014, 11:04:23 AM »
I appreciate all the answers, albeit quite unanimous.  ^-^

However, think we lost track of why there was a confusion in the first place.
  As my original post shows, the rule text itself from CAR is not that very clear on this matter.
  Even if there are annotations and clarifications elsewhere in the document, it should be obvious right there where I read it the first time, and where most of us will go when need an answer to this question: The River II fork placement section.

It could be as simple as replacing this:

The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...

with this:

The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table. The youngest player then places the fork and then may place a farm on it. Then each player takes turns placing a tile...

 :meeple:

At this level of granularity, any changes in word order that are made basically come down to personal preference. Depending on how your mind works, one order of explanation may be more or less confusing than another. While you would obviously prefer the order that you describe, others might see the current way as just right, as it first goes through the approach to tile placement, then talks about follower placement, then talks about scoring bonuses (the pig herd). Since I cannot possibly make everyone happy, I have stuck with the order from the original rules.

We also run into the question of how much clarification is enough, and how much is too much? The assumption is that someone reading the rules to an expansion knows the rules of the basic game. Those rules include the option to place a follower after placing a tile. Since there is no specific prohibition mentioned here, I see no reason to believe that it would be any other way in this specific case. Should I add the part about the option of placing a follower to every sentence in the CAR that mentions tile placement? And if so, should I also remind readers that they can't place a follower on a claimed feature in each of those sentences?

Offline Paul

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2014, 11:37:16 AM »
You certainly make a point.

However, all the other rules (incl. those in the CAR) that I've read, it's fairly obvious. Bear in mind that anyone that reads the rules should be able to understand them instantly.

How is "the youngest player places the fork. Then each player places..." is so obvious you can place a farm on it?
  Understand that before CAR I didn't know it was possible to do it and after CAR I didn't think of it either, until I started getting an understanding of how Carcassonne game works.
  Even then, hence this thread, I was confused.



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