Author Topic: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0  (Read 9258 times)

Offline DaFees

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 02:05:33 PM »
Thanks to everyone for their hard work on this. I do want to point out a couple things I found. First, I have a couple instances where words have appeared twice.

On Page 261 under the sub-section "knock out" it says "A mini-game in The Catapult. Players must aim TO TO hit, if possible, other players' followers on the playing field.
On Page 135 under footnote 409 it says "If a tile is added TO TO a feature with a builder"
On Page 257 under the sub-section "deployment" it says "Moving a follower from THE THE supply to occupy a feature."
On Page 61 under footnote 167 it says "You do receive the bonus from THE THE pig-herd tile"

That's all I could find with those. There is another matter I'd like to mention. I know this CAR is designed to be a single set of rules that define how to play the game, regardless of what language you speak. I also know that, in that, the CAR tries to cover all differences in rules between publishers. This is where I have some slight concern. If we go to page 189 where it lists the rules sets for the difference publishers we see that in the last column RGG & ZMG are grouped together. This works fine for most rules BUT not all of them. For example, under RGG rules you can capture a follower on a tower BUT under ZMG rules you can't. Also, according to the CAR, RGG rules state dragon movement happens after scoring (although I disagree with the CAR saying this) but according to ZMG rules movement happens before scoring.

My main thing with this is that while people may read the CAR cover to cover once or twice, normally, they may just jump to the charts found on these later pages as a quick refresher. Plus, RGG rules really don't matter as much anymore because anyone who is getting into the game for the first time is like to own a copy from ZMG and as such they'll want to follow the rules according to ZMG. I mean, I know I try to do this when I can. So when the rules on those charts say they are the same for both RGG and ZMG (even though they are not) some players may just follow what the chart says anyways, even if they don't realize the rules they're following aren't actually right (in regards to their preferred publisher).

So, I think a simple fix would be is to use a slash. For example, on the row, where it says "tower captures followers on towers" then under the last column (for RGG and ZMG) it should have Yes / No. I think this would better match up with how the rules are presented in detail under the expansion they related to.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 03:52:55 PM »
Thank you for your keen eyes. I will correct those duplicate words.

If we go to page 189 where it lists the rules sets for the difference publishers we see that in the last column RGG & ZMG are grouped together. This works fine for most rules BUT not all of them. For example, under RGG rules you can capture a follower on a tower BUT under ZMG rules you can't.

I will need to update this section. I admit that I haven't had time to delve into all of the ZMG rules to see where they have arbitrarily decided to change the rules from the HiG version.

Also, according to the CAR, RGG rules state dragon movement happens after scoring (although I disagree with the CAR saying this) but according to ZMG rules movement happens before scoring.

Not sure what the disagreement is about the RGG version. From RGG's version of Big Box 3:

Quote
Whenever a player draws a tile showing a dragon figure, he places it as he would normally place a tile, and may also place a follower on the tile as he normally could. If placement of the tile completes a feature, it is scored as normal. Then, the game is briefly interrupted while the Dragon moves!

My main thing with this is that while people may read the CAR cover to cover once or twice, normally, they may just jump to the charts found on these later pages as a quick refresher. Plus, RGG rules really don't matter as much anymore because anyone who is getting into the game for the first time is like to own a copy from ZMG and as such they'll want to follow the rules according to ZMG. I mean, I know I try to do this when I can. So when the rules on those charts say they are the same for both RGG and ZMG (even though they are not) some players may just follow what the chart says anyways, even if they don't realize the rules they're following aren't actually right (in regards to their preferred publisher).

So, I think a simple fix would be is to use a slash. For example, on the row, where it says "tower captures followers on towers" then under the last column (for RGG and ZMG) it should have Yes / No. I think this would better match up with how the rules are presented in detail under the expansion they related to.

I guess the philosophical question is whether that section should even continue to exist. Since the goal of the CAR is to try to unify players under the official HiG rules, keeping the sections specific to individual publishers actually runs counter to that intent and just muddies the waters. Not saying that I'm just going to axe that section right away, but it may have outlived its usefulness....

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2014, 03:54:40 PM »
Many thanks for all the hard work!

One request - can the version number appear on the title (first) page as well, please?

That would be incredibly logical. Seems silly that I haven't already done that. I'll see if I can't do that for the mini-update (maybe coming in a day or 2).

Offline Scott

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2014, 05:06:33 PM »
Congrats to everyone involved on helping to reach this milestone!

New expansions are missing from cover image. :(

Offline SirOtilc

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2014, 05:35:36 PM »
thanks to everyone involved in this great piece of work, and a special BIG THANK YOU to obervet.

@obervet:
if you need a copy of german monasteries i will gladly send you one from my own collection with the costs of shipment on me of course (it happens that i have 2), as a tiny contribution to this amazing work (you can send me your address in my inbox, or in any other way you suggest)

and what else to say...LETS GO WILD
:)

« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 05:38:18 PM by SirOtilc »

Offline DaFees

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2014, 05:43:15 PM »
Also, according to the CAR, RGG rules state dragon movement happens after scoring (although I disagree with the CAR saying this) but according to ZMG rules movement happens before scoring.

Not sure what the disagreement is about the RGG version. From RGG's version of Big Box 3:

Quote
Whenever a player draws a tile showing a dragon figure, he places it as he would normally place a tile, and may also place a follower on the tile as he normally could. If placement of the tile completes a feature, it is scored as normal. Then, the game is briefly interrupted while the Dragon moves!

I posted this in another thread but I'll post it here as well. If I may quote RGG's version of Big Box 3 as found here, http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=527, go to page 15 of that document. Starting midway down the page is a section titled "Turn sequence." At the bottom of Step 2. "Move" WOOD is the phrase, if necessary, DRAGON JOURNEY (the Princess & Dragon). Next, then is Step 3., Score. Yes, earlier in this document it does state that movement does happen AFTER scoring BUT in this section it does not. My feelings are that when RGG initially published the Princess & Dragon they stated that movement occurs after scoring. Eventually they realized this wrong and decided to correct it in the Big Box 3 which they did in the "Turn sequence" section but they took the lazy way out and forgot to update the rules under the Princess & Dragon section.

I know this may not make things clearer but if what I think is true, then it would really simplify things across the whole CAR. Instead of separate rules for RGG and ZMG/HIG in different parts of the CAR we would then only need a small footnote saying RGG initially misstated the rule but then later corrected it in Big Box 3.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 05:46:39 PM by DaFees »

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 05:56:58 AM »
Also, according to the CAR, RGG rules state dragon movement happens after scoring (although I disagree with the CAR saying this) but according to ZMG rules movement happens before scoring.

Not sure what the disagreement is about the RGG version. From RGG's version of Big Box 3:

Quote
Whenever a player draws a tile showing a dragon figure, he places it as he would normally place a tile, and may also place a follower on the tile as he normally could. If placement of the tile completes a feature, it is scored as normal. Then, the game is briefly interrupted while the Dragon moves!

I posted this in another thread but I'll post it here as well. If I may quote RGG's version of Big Box 3 as found here, http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=527, go to page 15 of that document. Starting midway down the page is a section titled "Turn sequence." At the bottom of Step 2. "Move" WOOD is the phrase, if necessary, DRAGON JOURNEY (the Princess & Dragon). Next, then is Step 3., Score. Yes, earlier in this document it does state that movement does happen AFTER scoring BUT in this section it does not. My feelings are that when RGG initially published the Princess & Dragon they stated that movement occurs after scoring. Eventually they realized this wrong and decided to correct it in the Big Box 3 which they did in the "Turn sequence" section but they took the lazy way out and forgot to update the rules under the Princess & Dragon section.

I know this may not make things clearer but if what I think is true, then it would really simplify things across the whole CAR. Instead of separate rules for RGG and ZMG/HIG in different parts of the CAR we would then only need a small footnote saying RGG initially misstated the rule but then later corrected it in Big Box 3.

There are definitely discrepancies within the RGG rules. However, given the shoddy and slapdash appearance of both the Turn Overview (p 15) and the Scoring Overview (p 16), my thought it the opposite of yours. I take the written rules to be the actual intent, and the creation of the tables was a quick and poorly-edited afterthought. In the Figures table there are at least two very obvious typos (befor, basar), and in the Scoring Overview there are references to farms earning points for a "completed" castle (even though there is supposed to be no differentiation between complete and incomplete castles for this purpose). Also, the Scoring Overview omits the initial scoring of a farmer when a barn is placed and kicks out the farmer (3 points/city). Thus, given the number of errors in those tables, it is more likely that the Dragon movement in the table is simply another error rather than the new intent.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2014, 06:03:59 AM »
thanks to everyone involved in this great piece of work, and a special BIG THANK YOU to obervet.

@obervet:
if you need a copy of german monasteries i will gladly send you one from my own collection with the costs of shipment on me of course (it happens that i have 2), as a tiny contribution to this amazing work (you can send me your address in my inbox, or in any other way you suggest)

and what else to say...LETS GO WILD
:)

I greatly appreciate your offer, SirOtilc, but I actually do have a copy of German Monasteries (I forgot to update my user profile).

And I will have to say, a shout-out to the Wild from across the ocean brought a smile to my face.

 :)

Offline Nebus

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2014, 04:01:57 PM »
Awesome!

Thanks for your hard work!

 :black-meeple:

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2014, 07:54:22 AM »
I do realize that the cover artwork has not been updated. The artwork files have always come from other users (not me), so I'm simply using the most recent version that I have. If anyone wants to provide me with updated artwork, it would get used in the next CAR. If I don't get anything, I may update it myself some day, but it's not my top priority.


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