Author Topic: Castle scoring with mayors  (Read 1041 times)

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2021, 02:30:42 PM »
'The rules are clear. A castle score the same number of points as the first feature(s) that is/are scored in its fief.
The discussion about adjacent or not is not even relevant...'

Are really clear? You say Castle score same points as the first FEATURE. But you give the same points to all the castles even the road is out of their fiefs. Then... Is a Castle a feature? First contradiction of basic rules begins...
The discussion about what is adjacent or what not is the key.
Tomorrow I will post the next example to explain what I'm talking about.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

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Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2021, 02:58:24 PM »
But you give the same points to all the castles even the road is out of their fiefs. Then... Is a Castle a feature? First contradiction of basic rules begins...
The discussion about what is adjacent or what not is the key.
Tomorrow I will post the next example to explain what I'm talking about.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

I don't give the same number of points to all castles. The two castles on the left got 4 points because of the completed road in their fief. The two on the right because of the completed castles in their fief.

And yes, a castle is a feature which can be claimed. And no, there is no contradiction. Adjacent is not key, castles score for the first completed feature in their fief. It is as simple as that...


Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2021, 04:35:01 PM »
But you give the same points to all the castles even the road is out of their fiefs. Then... Is a Castle a feature? First contradiction of basic rules begins...
The discussion about what is adjacent or what not is the key.
Tomorrow I will post the next example to explain what I'm talking about.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

I don't give the same number of points to all castles. The two castles on the left got 4 points because of the completed road in their fief. The two on the right because of the completed castles in their fief.

And yes, a castle is a feature which can be claimed. And no, there is no contradiction. Adjacent is not key, castles score for the first completed feature in their fief. It is as simple as that...
Castle is a feature? Where did you read that? Official rules?

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital


Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2021, 05:22:49 PM »
Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2021, 05:31:05 PM »


Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles

Next to each other... And what is that?
'it will be considered as a completed feature'
AS not IS
Seems here is an exception in the case 'next to' but they don't call Castle=feature always... Castle depends of a feature (road, city or monastery) to score.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital


Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2021, 12:45:20 AM »
I read it that two castles share some adjaced tiles.
Look it as chain. One scores, second scores, third scores,...

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2021, 03:06:41 AM »
Next example...  :yellow-meeple:

Eyeeple wants to close the road. How much would each score?



Second example...  :blue-meeple:

In this case the castles without meeples were not previously scored but simply didn’t place meeple (stupid movements but it is for the example)


Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2021, 03:23:24 AM »
The castle is a feature: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Goldmines#cite_ref-1 (it can receive gold ingots)
"the owner of the small city chooses to either score 4 points as normal, or to place a castle on that small city instead." If there is no owner, that city cannot be converted into a castle. So the second example is impossible, unless that meeple was removed by a festival.
"Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points." "incomplete castles" seems to mean castles occupied by at least 1 meeple. So, if a castle does not contain a meeple, it means that it is completed.
First example: The castle that has 5 road tile in its area receives 6 points and the castle that it is placed on the tile with the bazaar and the FFOF tile receives 6 points.
Second example: The castle that has 5 road tile in its area receives 6 points and the castle that it is placed on the tile with the bazaar and the FFOF tile receives 6 points.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 03:26:14 AM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2021, 03:24:47 AM »


Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles

Next to each other... And what is that?
'it will be considered as a completed feature'
AS not IS
Seems here is an exception in the case 'next to' but they don't call Castle=feature always... Castle depends of a feature (road, city or monastery) to score.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital



In the German rules, HiG uses the adverb "nebeneinander" with means "adjacent" or "next to each other" as ZMG translated. In Carcassonne terms, this refers to two castles in the vicinity of or neighboring each other.

A castle is a feature. "It will be considered as a completed feature" means that "it [a castle, that is a feature,] will be considered completed." Remember that a city (a feature) is converted into a castle (another type of feature).

In 2012, the interpretation of the rules about neighboring castles was the same as you can see on this short thread on BGG:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/875697/castle-vicinity-castle

What we are discussing here is the "chain reaction" castles can trigger when scoring, as mentioned in the thread.

It is key to understand what points a feature is worth vs. what points a figure can score. This relationship is 1-to-1 for all meeples except for mayors. If a mayor scores 0 points, that doesn't mean the feature is worth 0 points. The same as a castle can score points for an unoccupied feature, a castle can also score the same points if the feature was occupied by a mayor that cannot score the feature.

All in all, castles score points for one completed feature in their vicinity (including other castles). Castles see the points the features are worth. They don't pay attention to the points scored by the figures on those features, if occupied.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2021, 03:25:14 AM »
Well.
1st example:Every castle will scores 6 points for road
2nd example:Snake of 1st castle and Spider (if I see correct) on 2nd castle will scores 6 points - here chain stopeed, because 3rd castle is not occupied - it's allready consider as finished

Finaly stored, two different answers made during writing my comment ;-)

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2021, 03:29:47 AM »
Example 2 like you described cannot happen. If you build a castle, then according to the rules you must place a meeple on it:
 
Quote

When you place a tile that completes a small city (a city consisting of only 2 semi-circular segments [6] [7]), the owner of the small city chooses to either score 4 points as normal, or to place a castle on that small city instead.

When the owner places a castle, cover the small city that was just completed with a castle from your supply, and place the meeple that was in the small city on top of the castle. [8] [9]

But let's just pretend for the sake of the point you want to make that these unoccupied castles were somehow completed in a previous turn, then only the two castles on the left score 6 points. A castle can only score points for the first feature that is completed in its fief. Since the first unoccupied castle from the left was already completed in a previous turn, it cannot be completed again this turn. The chain reaction stops right there since no other occupied castle has a completed feature in its fief.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 04:05:50 AM by Vital Pluymers »

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2021, 03:44:10 AM »


Excerpt of the Exp 8 rules:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles

Next to each other... And what is that?
'it will be considered as a completed feature'
AS not IS
Seems here is an exception in the case 'next to' but they don't call Castle=feature always... Castle depends of a feature (road, city or monastery) to score.

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital



In the German rules, HiG uses the adverb "nebeneinander" with means "adjacent" or "next to each other" as ZMG translated. In Carcassonne terms, this refers to two castles in the vicinity of or neighboring each other.

A castle is a feature. "It will be considered as a completed feature" means that "it [a castle, that is a feature,] will be considered completed." Remember that a city (a feature) is converted into a castle (another type of feature).

In 2012, the interpretation of the rules about neighboring castles was the same as you can see on this short thread on BGG:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/875697/castle-vicinity-castle

What we are discussing here is the "chain reaction" castles can trigger when scoring, as mentioned in the thread.

It is key to understand what points a feature is worth vs. what points a figure can score. This relationship is 1-to-1 for all meeples except for mayors. If a mayor scores 0 points, that doesn't mean the feature is worth 0 points. The same as a castle can score points for an unoccupied feature, a castle can also score the same points if the feature was occupied by a mayor that cannot score the feature.

All in all, castles score points for one completed feature in their vicinity (including other castles). Castles see the points the features are worth. They don't pay attention to the points scored by the figures on those features, if occupied.

It would be interesting if HiG clarifies whether when it says "nebeneinander" in the specific case of more than one nearby castle it is something literal or not. That is, on any of the 6 tiles or literally the castle glued next to each other.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2021, 03:59:16 AM »
A couple of images illustrating how the chain reaction is broken by the third castle from the left. The arrows indicate the feature(s) the castle may score the points for.

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second castle and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 04:08:35 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2021, 04:00:00 AM »
‘So the second example is impossible, unless that meeple was removed by a festival.‘
Exactly. Obviously there are ways that I know of that situation.
The fact is that the sentence of the official rules if the German term is interpreted as in any of the 6 tiles, absurd ways of scoring could be given as the last examples that I have put. Which personally contradict the main rules of a castle and its 6 tiles.
If finally HiG really clarifies what it had in mind with that sentence (I think it would have been good to put an image in the official rules) and it is like that, it would be another example of the nonsense that it carries behind its back ... Like the new rules for the halflings, German castles or the C2 wagon ... Not being an official is going to make more sense.
And if in the end they literally wanted to say ‘next to’, that "chain reaction" it would be more difficult for it to happen and the game would be somewhat more balanced ...

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2021, 04:01:35 AM »
A couple of images illustrating how the chin reaction is broken by the third castle from the left:

Example 1: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second, so it cannot spread the chain reaction.
Example 2: the fief of the third castle does not overlap the second and it is already completed, so it cannot spread the chain reaction either.

That was my mistake... Imagine that there are overlap haha


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