Author Topic: Castle scoring with mayors  (Read 964 times)

Offline DrMeeple

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Castle scoring with mayors
« on: December 30, 2020, 04:38:54 AM »
Note by Meepledrone: This thread stems from a discussion about castle scoring involving mayors.



Question #14: After Danisthirty places this tile, how many points does each player score, if any?





Answer #14: The Blue Abbot scores no points. It was just placed on an incomplete monastery.

The tile placed completes an unoccupied 2-tile road. Nobody scores for the road itself but it triggers the scoring of the castle occupied by the Yellow Mayor. The castle is entitled to receive 2 points for the completed road (2 tiles x 1 point per tile) but the Yellow Mayor cannot score those points since the castle is a feature with no coats of arms.

So the Yellow Mayor will score 0 points for the road but will be able to receive the fairy 3-point scoring bonus. This means that Yellow scores 3 points after all.

Additionally, the completion of the castle occupied by Yellow triggers the scoring of the castle occupied by Red, since the castles overlap each other's fiefs. The Red Castle Lord will also be entitled to score the same 2 points the previous castle was entitled to for the road. As a result, Red will score 2 points.

Notes:
* A key point here is the dissociation between the points a feature is worth and the points a meeple can score. Castles see the points completed features are worth, even if the meeples on them cannot score those points. 
* Red will not be able to receive any points from the fairy. The fairy bonus is not part of the scoring of a feature but a bonus associated to a meeple.

Bottomline:
- Blue scores 0 points
- Red scores 2 points
- Yellow scores 3 points
Hahahaha I was waiting for another contradiction rules with no sense hahaha


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Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4954.0
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 01:20:12 PM by Meepledrone »
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Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2020, 08:51:44 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2020, 09:26:48 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Again, castles receive points from features, not points scored by meeples. This allows a castle to score points for an unoccupied feature, and this means that if you have several overlapping castles, they all share the points for the same feature, no matter if some of them are occupied by mayors and these only score 0 points.

If you assume Red would clone the 0 points scored by the Yellow Mayor for the castle, you should also be able to see the 3 points for the fairy? We are "cloning" feature points not meeple points.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2020, 09:29:12 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Again, castles receive points from features, not points scored by meeples. This allows a castle to score points for an unoccupied feature, and this means that if you have several overlapping castles, they all share the points for the same feature, no matter if some of them are occupied by mayors and these only score 0 points.

If you assume Red would clone the 0 points scored by the Yellow Mayor for the castle, you should also be able to see the 3 points for the fairy? We are "cloning" feature points not meeple points.
Scoring a castle with the score of another castle which in turn is a feature outside the first castle is against the rules itself ... It doesn't make any sense


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Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2020, 09:36:33 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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Again, castles receive points from features, not points scored by meeples. This allows a castle to score points for an unoccupied feature, and this means that if you have several overlapping castles, they all share the points for the same feature, no matter if some of them are occupied by mayors and these only score 0 points.

If you assume Red would clone the 0 points scored by the Yellow Mayor for the castle, you should also be able to see the 3 points for the fairy? We are "cloning" feature points not meeple points.
Scoring a castle with the score of another castle which in turn is a feature outside the first castle is against the rules itself ... It doesn't make any sense


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The rules says that a castle scores a feature of its 6 tiles but not beyond ... If there is a castle within the zone of another castle as is the case in the example, it is valued if there is a feature that is shared or not ... Take the points of another castle because it is on the zone of another does not make any logical sense following the basic principle of expansion ...
It seems that you want to go beyond the regulations and in the end you fall into contradictions ... If this is written as official regulations, it should be reviewed ...


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Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2020, 09:49:44 AM »
The rules says that a castle scores a feature of its 6 tiles but not beyond ... If there is a castle within the zone of another castle as is the case in the example, it is valued if there is a feature that is shared or not ... Take the points of another castle because it is on the zone of another does not make any logical sense following the basic principle of expansion ...
It seems that you want to go beyond the regulations and in the end you fall into contradictions ... If this is written as official regulations, it should be reviewed ...


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The official base rules are stating:
Quote
. Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points. 

So both meeples get the same number of points for the feature. Those are the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box.


The rules also say :
Quote
You can place the following figures in a castle:
[...]
Mayor, however, since the castle doesn't have a coat of arms, the mayor cannot score points

So, as one is a mayor, he can't get the points, only the points for his fairy.

Those are also the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box, in the "other expansions" section.

Please read the rules before saying we are inventing them.

And Meepledrone has the best knowledge of the rules, official, and also of those provided as clarifications by HiG. Of course you may not like those rules, and you're free to use your own, but please stop criticizing our work, and try to discuss gently when you see a contradiction, there are allways some.
Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2020, 10:33:15 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2020, 10:35:47 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?

Exactly  ;)

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 10:42:55 AM »
The rules says that a castle scores a feature of its 6 tiles but not beyond ... If there is a castle within the zone of another castle as is the case in the example, it is valued if there is a feature that is shared or not ... Take the points of another castle because it is on the zone of another does not make any logical sense following the basic principle of expansion ...
It seems that you want to go beyond the regulations and in the end you fall into contradictions ... If this is written as official regulations, it should be reviewed ...


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The official base rules are stating:
Quote
. Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points. 

So both meeples get the same number of points for the feature. Those are the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box.


The rules also say :
Quote
You can place the following figures in a castle:
[...]
Mayor, however, since the castle doesn't have a coat of arms, the mayor cannot score points

So, as one is a mayor, he can't get the points, only the points for his fairy.

Those are also the base official rules you can find printed in any exp 8 box, in the "other expansions" section.

Please read the rules before saying we are inventing them.

And Meepledrone has the best knowledge of the rules, official, and also of those provided as clarifications by HiG. Of course you may not like those rules, and you're free to use your own, but please stop criticizing our work, and try to discuss gently when you see a contradiction, there are allways some.
The problem is precisely that the official rules clearly explain how a castle works. Yes, I know what that phrase says, 'Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points' BUT what is an adjacent castle? They don’t put any example in images in the rules ... The problem is if you take that phrase out of the context of the rules themselves and interpret it as if or if it always has to be like this ... In that case you can fall into contradiction ... It goes without saying that knowing that a castle scores the 6 surrounding tiles, an adjacent castle must follow the same rules and yes or yes is an example in which they share land in some way ... If you decide to take the phrase out of the rules itself base and apply it to all cases contradicts the scoring rule itself ...
I don't understand why are you talking about the mayor becasue isn’t the problem... The mistake is in the red player's castle ...


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Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 10:46:36 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


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It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


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« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 10:48:56 AM by DrMeeple »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 11:41:24 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


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Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2020, 11:50:05 AM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)
Obviously it will take the points of the city because it’s within 6 tiles. Whether the city has meeple or not ... It is simply to apply the rules ... In this case there isn’t contradiction ...


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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2020, 12:38:44 PM »
Aaw, questions 13 and 14 are marking the end of my correct answers streak...  :'(
Maybe the beginning of my wrong answers streak?  >:D

13: I did only explore the first scenario, the second seemed to unlogical to me, as yellow would never allow it  :o ???

14: I thought the second castle would get the same number of points than the first (without fairy of course), 0 points.
Here's a correction I have to make to the French order of play  ;)
Meepledrone castle scoring for red player has no sense...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It has. Because check following sconario:
1. Finished road fire finish castle with Yellow meeple
2. Finished castle with Yellow meeple fire finish castle with Red meeple
right?
It would make sense if the feature was shared by both of you. Otherwise you contradict the basic rules itself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Question 14 is similar to this example: How many points does each player score?

I just replaced the castle for a city... I don't think Red scores 0 points because of the mayor.  ;)


Obviously it will take the points of the city because it’s within 6 tiles. Whether the city has meeple or not ... It is simply to apply the rules ... In this case there isn’t contradiction ...


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The rules in Exp. 8 say:
Quote
Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points.

So what happens in the example below? Do Yellow and Red score 0 points because of the Yellow Mayor? According to the rules they should receive the same points... and this is true for all the meeples until the mayor shows up.

There is a subtlety here: The feature is worth X points and the meeple may receive those X points but the meeple can score or cannot score those points (the mayor in this case). This is the decoupling I'm mentioning above.

So the scoring for this example should be:
- Blue scores 4 points for the city.
- Red scores 4 points for the city.
- Yellow scores 0 points for the city.

As per the rules, the castles owners receive the same points, but only Red can score them.

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 12:50:32 PM »
The yellow meeple scores according to the rules. He continues scoring but according to the figure he is ... If he is a mayor he will score according to the rules but he will score 0-X points ... There is no possible contradiction in this example...  ???
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 12:52:19 PM by DrMeeple »

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Castle scoring with mayors
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 12:54:16 PM »


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