Author Topic: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...  (Read 787 times)

Online corinthiens13

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Re: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2020, 04:42:19 AM »
The edges of the map complete everything, yet are not considered actual tiles. We know this thanks to the way the cloisters work on map edges - they only gain points for actual tiles, not pre-printed stuff.
So you can actually place Izbushka in such a way that certain empty spaces can never be filled, thus maximizing points. There are several places on different maps where to do this effectivelly. This method also removes the downside of traping a meeple for the rest of the game.
You can get up to 7 points for a completed Izbushka on British Isles - only 1 point short of maximum 8.

Well, I'm not sure... According to WICA, "At the end of the game, the player scores 1 point for each empty tile space surrounding Baba Yaga’s hut." But the map's edges are not tile spaces, so I'd say that like for cloisters, they are not counted at all...

And also, I don't know how to interpret this when playing with maps, but "If Baba Yaga’s hut is completely surrounded, the follower is returned to the player’s supply and the player scores only 1 point", so if Baba Yaga's on a single tile Island:
  • Either we consider it's never surrounded and so scored only at the end of the game, and worth 1 point only as it doesn't have any tile space around it
  • Either we consider it directly completed, but the rules says a completed baba yaga is worth 1 point, not more

What do you think?
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Online tp10053

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Re: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2020, 06:01:01 AM »
I am 100% sure that it works that way. As I explained with the cloister analogy.
 Empty tile spaces exist by default around the tiles. The map only "highlights" the legal tile placement area. Borders of this area also complete everything, which is why you immediately score Izbushka on the edge or the islands.
You can think of it like the well known "table rule" - the edge of the table highlights legal playing area.

Or to break it down:
-cloister scores points for surrounding tiles. The reason you do not score these points on Map edge is you cannot legally place tiles there (but it is still completed).
-likewise, Izbushka scores for empty tile spaces, Map edge guarantees these spaces will remain empty as no tile can be legally placed here (but is still completed).

Quote
    Either we consider it directly completed, but the rules says a completed baba yaga is worth 1 point, not more
That is not actually true. The rule was added in 2015 and it made Izbushka itself worth 1 point. So you score it as (# of empty spaces)*1+1=point gain.
In case of Izbushka completed by surrounding it with 8 tiles this makes 0*1+1=1.
In the Island case 8*1+1=9
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 06:18:12 AM by tp10053 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2020, 02:16:39 PM »
Here the point is if we can count those areas that cannot be occupied or we should ignore them the same way monasteries ignore them to be considered completed:

Around a monastery or Baba Yaga's Hut, we may find:
1. Map squares occupied by tiles:
    * Score 1 point for a monastery
    * Score 0 points for Baba Yaga's hut.
2. Map squares not occupied by tiles:
    * Score 0 points for a monastery
    * Score 1 point for Baba Yaga's hut.
3. Map areas that cannot be occupied by tiles beyond the country border:
    * Not considered for monastery scoring as occupied spaces (even those printed road segments or printed semicircular segments)
    * Not considered for monasteries as spaces (the allow to complete a monastery on the border with less tiles)
    * Should they be considered for Baba Yaga's Hut?

Following the approach for monasteries, I would only consider in the tiles and spaces in printed squares... If so the islands would not be a way to score more points, just to complete a feature faster.

Any thoughts? Too strict?
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2020, 02:37:15 PM »
Here the point is if we can count those areas that cannot be occupied or we should ignore them the same way monasteries ignore them to be considered completed:

Around a monastery or Baba Yaga's Hut, we may find:
1. Map squares occupied by tiles:
    * Score 1 point for a monastery
    * Score 0 points for Baba Yaga's hut.
2. Map squares not occupied by tiles:
    * Score 0 points for a monastery
    * Score 1 point for Baba Yaga's hut.
3. Map areas that cannot be occupied by tiles beyond the country border:
    * Not considered for monastery scoring as occupied spaces (even those printed road segments or printed semicircular segments)
    * Not considered for monasteries as spaces (the allow to complete a monastery on the border with less tiles)
    * Should they be considered for Baba Yaga's Hut?

Following the approach for monasteries, I would only consider in the tiles and spaces in printed squares... If so the islands would not be a way to score more points, just to complete a feature faster.

Any thoughts? Too strict?

Well. I guess, that it's about strict rules. If tiles for monasteries are counted only "preprinted" tiles positions, that online those positions can be counted for Baba Yaga's hut. So arround island is not preprinted tiles, so non keeped empty, Baba Yaga's scores only 1 point for itself.

I like strict rules and similarities in rules which have sense. This is good for prevention of rules fight during game. Because for some player is win of game primary goal of playing ;-(

Online tp10053

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Re: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2020, 08:07:28 PM »
Here the point is if we can count those areas that cannot be occupied or we should ignore them the same way monasteries ignore them to be considered completed:

Around a monastery or Baba Yaga's Hut, we may find:
1. Map squares occupied by tiles:
    * Score 1 point for a monastery
    * Score 0 points for Baba Yaga's hut.
2. Map squares not occupied by tiles:
    * Score 0 points for a monastery
    * Score 1 point for Baba Yaga's hut.
3. Map areas that cannot be occupied by tiles beyond the country border:
    * Not considered for monastery scoring as occupied spaces (even those printed road segments or printed semicircular segments)
    * Not considered for monasteries as spaces (the allow to complete a monastery on the border with less tiles)
    * Should they be considered for Baba Yaga's Hut?

Following the approach for monasteries, I would only consider in the tiles and spaces in printed squares... If so the islands would not be a way to score more points, just to complete a feature faster.

Any thoughts? Too strict?

As I explained earlier, cloisters do not "ignore" the spaces - the reason they don't score those points is there are no tiles there. The fact that you cannot legally place them there is another matter.

Empty tile spaces exist around every placed tile by default (until filled), so of course all the spaces on the Map edge are considered, they always are. It is the same thing as if you placed a cloister, or Izbushka on the edge of the playing table. You cannot legally place extra tiles around them because they would fall, but you still count all the spaces during scoring. The Map does the same - it highlights where you can still legally lay tiles.
There is no rigid grid in Carcassonne, only a suggestive grid of infinite empty spaces established by a starting tile(s).

So in short preprinted tile space ≠ empty tile space, that would be a false dichotomy.
A Carcassonne Map is basically a specifically shaped plaing table with added bonus of completing any thing that touches the edge.

Of course, if anyone who happens to read this tip does not like it, they can always houserule it out. But I wanted to bring this curiosity into people's attention  so they might find more reasons to play with Izbushka and/or Maps.  If I wasn't certain it would work, I wouldn't post it in the first place  :D

Online corinthiens13

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Re: Izbushka - Baba Yaga's Hut breaking the limits...
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2020, 09:58:45 PM »
To me, Meepledrone's point of view seems more accurate with Baba Yaga's rules. But your version could be an interesting house rule.
As I explained earlier, cloisters do not "ignore" the spaces - the reason they don't score those points is there are no tiles there. The fact that you cannot legally place them there is another matter.
Rules doesn't specify why we do not count them. That's a way to interpred it, but I'd stick with the "don't score because don't exist" interpretation.

Empty tile spaces exist around every placed tile by default (until filled), so of course all the spaces on the Map edge are considered, they always are. It is the same thing as if you placed a cloister, or Izbushka on the edge of the playing table. You cannot legally place extra tiles around them because they would fall, but you still count all the spaces during scoring. The Map does the same - it highlights where you can still legally lay tiles.
There's no official rules about table edges, only house rules (or did I miss something?).
There is no rigid grid in Carcassonne, only a suggestive grid of infinite empty spaces established by a starting tile(s).
Right, but the maps changed this game mechanism by adding borders.
So in short preprinted tile space ≠ empty tile space, that would be a false dichotomy.
Preprinted tiles (those with big cities) are counted as tiles for scoring, that's clearly stated in maps rules, unlike border spaces.
But preprinted spaces (called preprinted squares) are empty tile spaces to my opinion.
A Carcassonne Map is basically a specifically shaped plaing table with added bonus of completing any thing that touches the edge.
Ok with this too.

Oh, I love cundco's phrase "This expansion has been developed for the Carcassonne basic game. All the basic game rules still apply in addition to the expansion rules below. You can combine it with other expansions - but at your own risk – that is, there will be no official rules for these combinations."  :-\
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 10:02:44 PM by corinthiens13 »


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