Author Topic: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)  (Read 166 times)

Online tp10053

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Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« on: October 26, 2020, 03:21:22 PM »
I was mainly talking about 2016 and 2019 tiles. 2016 because of its unique internal field touching a single city.
2019 tile for the reasons Meepledrone mentioned. I think it is interesting purely for the fact that it is the most redundant tile in Carcassonne ever.

2020 is definatelly the most exciting one they made so far.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4856.0

Offline Drodo

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2020, 03:42:04 PM »
The 2019 one exists in expansion 9, except it has a bridge but it's just decorative, it does not connect the 2 city segments, no gates are shown. If it was meant to connect, the artwork for it was poorly done then. Also connecting them would take away everything that is special about this tile. Its design is meant to be 2 separate cities in one tile that can later be combined at the top, it's great for stealing cities.

I'm sorry if I burst your bubble of bliss. The HiG representatives at Essen'19 told Murphy013 the bridge was connecting both city segments. Nothing but a nice tile in my humble opinion, since it is actually a regular CCCR tile with no extra tactical possibilities. It was reported here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4398.msg64970#msg64970

However. the Spiel 20 promo tile allows your city to be potentially connected to two different fields... This is so nice :(y) :(y)

That makes it even less special! A CCCF tile with a fancy design that is.

As for the 2016 one, is it official that you can farm in it? There are knights fighting, would you ask them not to step on your turnips? lol

That would make it a unique tile but not a good strategy. A field meeple for just 3 points. There are other CCCC tiles with a field inside in most expansions but they have separate city segments. I don't think I've seen anyone play a farmer inside those.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 04:40:56 PM »
The 2019 one exists in expansion 9, except it has a bridge but it's just decorative, it does not connect the 2 city segments, no gates are shown. If it was meant to connect, the artwork for it was poorly done then. Also connecting them would take away everything that is special about this tile. Its design is meant to be 2 separate cities in one tile that can later be combined at the top, it's great for stealing cities.

I'm sorry if I burst your bubble of bliss. The HiG representatives at Essen'19 told Murphy013 the bridge was connecting both city segments. Nothing but a nice tile in my humble opinion, since it is actually a regular CCCR tile with no extra tactical possibilities. It was reported here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4398.msg64970#msg64970

However. the Spiel 20 promo tile allows your city to be potentially connected to two different fields... This is so nice :(y) :(y)

That makes it even less special! A CCCF tile with a fancy design that is.

As for the 2016 one, is it official that you can farm in it? There are knights fighting, would you ask them not to step on your turnips? lol

That would make it a unique tile but not a good strategy. A field meeple for just 3 points. There are other CCCC tiles with a field inside in most expansions but they have separate city segments. I don't think I've seen anyone play a farmer inside those.

All the Spiel promo tiles feature decorative scenes with no impact on the game. So the Spiel 16 sword fight scene is just another one.



So turnips apart, the green patch is surrounded by tents and some spectators behind a wooden fence but not the usual city walls that would touch a field. So the green patch should not be considered a proper field.

Therefore this tile would behave as a regular CCCC tile... However it invites anyone to define some house rules for it, right?

Regarding this tile from I&C you mentioned, I once placed a farmer in that inner field with the prospect of scoring 12 points for the adjacent cities. As far as I remember I managed to get 9 points ;)

« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 04:45:06 PM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Online tp10053

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 05:45:20 PM »
What is the source of this clarification that you cannot farm on 2016?

Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2020, 11:42:58 PM »
I remember also somthing like that from rules nut I can't find it now.
I was really surprised when I played JCloiserZone and by mistake I placed farmer to inner field...

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 12:18:54 AM »
Quote

All the Spiel promo tiles feature decorative scenes with no impact on the game. So the Spiel 16 sword fight scene is just another one.



So turnips apart, the green patch is surrounded by tents and some spectators behind a wooden fence but not the usual city walls that would touch a field. So the green patch should not be considered a proper field.

Therefore this tile would behave as a regular CCCC tile... However it invites anyone to define some house rules for it, right?



We always use the rules of the fan's expansion 'The Jousting Tournament' when playing with this tile.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 03:17:40 AM by Whaleyland »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2020, 01:53:13 AM »
What is the source of this clarification that you cannot farm on 2016?

There is no direct clarification about this particular tile as of yet.

The closest clarification we have is how Hills & Sheep handles shepherds in completed fields. I cite below the C2 German rules, since they are very precise, and their English translation (ZMG just mentions "cities"):

German:
Quote
Sonderfall: Schließt du eine Wiese mit Schäfern und Schafen komplett durch Straßen oder Stadtmauern ab, löst du für diese Wiese sofort die Aktion Schafherde in den Stall treiben aus.

English:
Quote
Special case: If you close a field with shepherds and sheep by fully surrounding it by roads or city walls, you immediately trigger the action Guide the flock to the stable for this field.

As you can see fields can be limited by roads and city walls. As a side note, we also know that Abbey tiles can be adjacent to a farm edge.

So these are the references we have to discard the grass patch on the Spiel 16 promo tile as a proper field.

Hope this helps!

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2020, 02:15:00 AM »
Nice idea!! I will use it Vital!! :D
'Connected field segments are called farms'  - The Weed Guru

Offline Willem

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2020, 03:14:32 AM »
I don't use the green in the Spiel 16 tile as field.
As the city around it does not have city walls next to the green, it would leave the city unfinished in my opinion, so a farmer would not even score points.

(And I'm sure HiG never thought this much about the tile, so perhaps it's not something to take too serious hahaha)
To be or not to:
A.  B
B.  C
C.  P

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2020, 03:57:55 AM »
I don't use the green in the Spiel 16 tile as field.
As the city around it does not have city walls next to the green, it would leave the city unfinished in my opinion, so a farmer would not even score points.

(And I'm sure HiG never thought this much about the tile, so perhaps it's not something to take too serious hahaha)

Very true Willem! It’s a decoration tile or just you can use it like fan expansion...

Online tp10053

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2020, 06:37:20 AM »
Quote
There is no direct clarification about this particular tile as of yet.
So there is no official rule, therefore visual cues take priority = nothing prevents you from farming there.
Also, if such ruling was never made, why is it on Wica?

Honestly the whole thing about city walls is not really convincing at all. That snippet in Hills and sheep is only supposed to explain what to do if the field with shepperd cannot be extended anymore, and then gives you an example on how such thing might happen.

Willeim's remark about unfinished city also shouldn't apply - there are many examples of separate claimable features being inside cities and those are not surounded by city walls either.

It is a proper patch of field touching a single city, so it qualifies as a farm, unless specifically stated otherwise (as is the case with the infamous CCI crossroad.)

« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 06:39:48 AM by tp10053 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2020, 07:56:21 AM »
Quote
There is no direct clarification about this particular tile as of yet.
So there is no official rule, therefore visual cues take priority = nothing prevents you from farming there.
Also, if such ruling was never made, why is it on Wica?

I included a description for each tile to the best of my understanding some time ago. Sometimes it is useful. As we all know there are no rules for those tiles. And just a clarification for the Spiel'19 promo tile.

Honestly the whole thing about city walls is not really convincing at all. That snippet in Hills and sheep is only supposed to explain what to do if the field with shepperd cannot be extended anymore, and then gives you an example on how such thing might happen.

That snippets illustrates that a city boundary is defined by a city wall. As per the base game rules: "A city is completed
when it is surrounded by walls and there are no gaps inside the city." Those walls will meet a field as we know, but the wording is focused on cities surrounded by walls.

So I was just offering you a reference where a field may be surrounded. In this case the boundaries are defined by city walls or roads. And we know that abbey tiles will do as well.

Willeim's remark about unfinished city also shouldn't apply - there are many examples of separate claimable features being inside cities and those are not surounded by city walls either.

Yes, there are other features in cities, but those cases are documented. For example an monastery in a city. Here you have a jousting scene.

If the absence of a city wall is not enough for you, you can handle this particular case as you see fit in your games. As Willem suggets, you could even decide that this is a hole in a city, since it has no walls, and it will render your city incomplete no matter what... Because the base game rules dictate that cities should be surrounded by walls and contain no holes... Is this grass patch a hole since it has no city walls encircling it?

It is a proper patch of field touching a single city, so it qualifies as a farm, unless specifically stated otherwise (as is the case with the infamous CCI crossroad.)

If we have to stick to the known rules, you would require a city wall around the grass patch... But again, there are no written rules to explicitly cover this case.

You can interpret the scene with the grass patch as something different than a mere decoration and act accordingly. Without the city walls, it would be like a bazaar or a festival in a city.

Likewise, the following festival scene surrounds a brown ground patch in the middle of a field but we don't see it as a city without walls.  ;)



Online tp10053

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2020, 10:34:44 AM »
Quote
I included a description for each tile to the best of my understanding some time ago. Sometimes it is useful. As we all know there are no rules for those tiles. And just a clarification for the Spiel'19 promo tile.
That is understandable. But shouldn't it be in a footnote then? Right now it looks like an official rule, which is not the case.

Quote
That snippets illustrates that a city boundary is defined by a city wall. As per the base game rules: "A city is completed
when it is surrounded by walls and there are no gaps inside the city." Those walls will meet a field as we know, but the wording is focused on cities surrounded by walls.
Well... but it doesn't. The purpose of that rulling is to tell the player what to do if the field with a shepperd cannot be further extended by adding another tile. The mention of cities and roads only serves to illustrate how such a situation might occur. Cities themsleves and their "completeness" are not the point of that section at all.
There is no such thing as a "completed field", there are only fields that cannot be further extended. This includes non-extendable fields located on a single tile, such as cccc tile from I&C, T&B and, by extension, 2016 spiel promo.
The "gaps" in the base game rule you mentioned relate to cities which have a missing tile on the inside - a tile gap.

Quote
Is this grass patch a hole since it has no city walls encircling it?
No it isn't, for reasons I described above. Separate features inside a city do not cause it to be incomplete, only whole tile gaps do. Many features are located inside a city: cloisters, bazaars, roads, and in this case a field.

Quote
If we have to stick to the known rules, you would require a city wall around the grass patch
No rule referes to fields as requiring city walls to be considered fields.

Quote
Likewise, the following festival scene surrounds a brown ground patch in the middle of a field but we don't see it as a city without walls.
Of course they don't, that is what I am saying.

Arguing in favor of one possible interpretation of a single tile is one thing (ultimately there is no official statement for 2016 tile), but coming up with new concepts that retroactively redefine certain basic aspects of the game seems like a bad idea to me.

PS: Spiel 20 tile looks great in person  ^-^
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 10:36:55 AM by tp10053 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Spiel 2016: To Farm Or Not To Farm (that is the question)
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2020, 01:15:10 PM »
Quote
I included a description for each tile to the best of my understanding some time ago. Sometimes it is useful. As we all know there are no rules for those tiles. And just a clarification for the Spiel'19 promo tile.
That is understandable. But shouldn't it be in a footnote then? Right now it looks like an official rule, which is not the case.

Disclaimer added. Thanks for the suggestion.  :(y) :(y)

Quote
That snippets illustrates that a city boundary is defined by a city wall. As per the base game rules: "A city is completed
when it is surrounded by walls and there are no gaps inside the city." Those walls will meet a field as we know, but the wording is focused on cities surrounded by walls.
Well... but it doesn't. The purpose of that rulling is to tell the player what to do if the field with a shepperd cannot be further extended by adding another tile. The mention of cities and roads only serves to illustrate how such a situation might occur. Cities themsleves and their "completeness" are not the point of that section at all.
There is no such thing as a "completed field", there are only fields that cannot be further extended. This includes non-extendable fields located on a single tile, such as cccc tile from I&C, T&B and, by extension, 2016 spiel promo.
The "gaps" in the base game rule you mentioned relate to cities which have a missing tile on the inside - a tile gap.

The issue here is why the Spiel'16 promo tile is the exception after several tiles with inner fields clearly showing city walls around those field segments, even if the field segment are much smaller than the one on the Spiel'16 promo tile...

I&C:


A&M:


CK&R:


HiG would be breaking their own visual conventions after 16 years. These very same configurations existed in C1.

Quote
Is this grass patch a hole since it has no city walls encircling it?
No it isn't, for reasons I described above. Separate features inside a city do not cause it to be incomplete, only whole tile gaps do. Many features are located inside a city: cloisters, bazaars, roads, and in this case a field.

We agree. It was a tongue in cheek example...

Quote
If we have to stick to the known rules, you would require a city wall around the grass patch
No rule referes to fields as requiring city walls to be considered fields.

Hundreds of tiles are our witnesses here... See the tiles with inner fields above or any tile with a field and a city wall boundary.

Quote
Likewise, the following festival scene surrounds a brown ground patch in the middle of a field but we don't see it as a city without walls.
Of course they don't, that is what I am saying.

Arguing in favor of one possible interpretation of a single tile is one thing (ultimately there is no official statement for 2016 tile), but coming up with new concepts that retroactively redefine certain basic aspects of the game seems like a bad idea to me.

PS: Spiel 20 tile looks great in person  ^-^

Ha ha ha! I'm not the one trying to bend HiG's visual conventions in two editions.

PS: Gorgeous tile indeed...



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