Author Topic: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition  (Read 279 times)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« on: October 29, 2020, 08:30:21 AM »
In rules of new edition German Cathedrals at Wikipedia at http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany

is one "Note" which I don't fully understand.

Note: A road starting and ending at the cathedral, is counted as one road, which will be scored once. [4]

Foot note says: This note included in the 1st edition was omitted in the new edition.
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany#cite_note-4

So for me in new version, every road segment started on Cathedral tile is calculated separately doesn't matter if roads are connected.

If they will want to keep it, they will do it. If they remove it, it has to be removed also from WikiCarpedia and work with this as Rule change between C1 and C2.

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4852.0

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2020, 10:08:23 AM »
It’s a bit speculative to assume that because they omit this note the rules change ... maybe they have omitted it for space. It would be best to ask HiG directly before modifying anything. Keem calm and be a meeple  :yellow-meeple:
'Connected field segments are called farms'  - The Weed Guru

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2020, 10:18:04 AM »
Ok. Space can be problem, but usually every version usually simplify rules. Maybe this is one of them ;-)

Offline Willem

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2020, 10:38:30 AM »
I don't see this change in the rules of the new edition of the rules tbh.
It states that 'the 3 or 4 roads segments on the cathedral tile are counted separately', which I believe was in the rules for the 1st edition as well
To be or not to:
A.  B
B.  C
C.  P

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2020, 11:01:19 AM »
I'll see them when rules arrived. Currently we have lockdown, so can't go to my check my post box ;-(

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2020, 12:03:52 PM »
I see no change in the rules... The wording is almost exactly to the one of the C1 edition.

I kept this note because it can spare players from some neverending discussions. If you have a road starting and ending ar the same German cathedral, the archbishop only scores points for it once, that is, the archbishop does not score points separately for each road connected to a road segment on the German cathedral tile.

Maybe HiG omitted this note because it was redundant with this example:

Scoring a completed German Cathedral: You get 8 points for the finished cathedral (Two closed roads: 1x worth 5 points and 1x worth 3 points). Blue gets 6 points for the closed road.

You can see that the road looping back to the German cathedral is scored only once. Even if it is connected to two different road segments on the cathedral tile.

However, you can see how the road looping back is worth 5 points instead of the 4 points (1 per tile) we are used to. So scoring the road segments on the German cathedral separately (noticeable on roads looping back) does not imply you score the full road once per road segment on the German cathedral tile. Again, this is what the missing note was stressing.

As I said earlier, the rules do not differ from C1. Even the examples are the same so I guess we can sleep peacefully tonight in the land of re-released expansions.

Hope this helps!
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2020, 12:10:20 PM »
Maybe HiG omitted this note because it was redundant with this example:

Scoring a completed German Cathedral: You get 8 points for the finished cathedral (Two closed roads: 1x worth 5 points and 1x worth 3 points). Blue gets 6 points for the closed road.
Absolutely! One picture which can solve multiple issues. Note is not necesarry anymore.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2020, 12:21:49 PM »
Due to this lack of space, examples have become as important to the rules as the written words, since they clarify or extend the rules in some way... In some other cases they may be misleading like for Watchtowers.  >:D

So in this case, the examples are a plus worth paying attention to.  :(y) :(y)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2020, 12:36:10 PM »
Yes of course, when picture in Watchtower will be like here, that by one tile will be finished watchtower issues on both sided of Watchtower and said, that meeple on watchtower tile on city get's points for watchtower and meeple on road but on on watchtower will not get points. Then it will be clear ;-)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2020, 12:37:58 PM »
But I have a question:
There is a road connected to two German Cathedrals in length of 4 tiles (2 of them are German Cathedral tiles).
How many poins get Thiev?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 11:36:07 AM by Bumsakalaka »

Offline Willem

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2020, 01:32:32 PM »
Depends, is this for scoring the road? Or scoring for the cathedral?
For the road, it would be 8 points (4 tiles, 2 per tile),
For the cathedral, it would be 4

And to get back to the initial topic:
I must say I think the removal of that note actually makes things clearer for me. I read it as that the cathedral tile is only counted once for these, but it is aiming at the individual segments of the road on the tile. Meaning that a road starting and ending at the cathedral tile is counted as a road once. It makes so much sense, that having the note confuses me more. So I'm happy it was removed in the new print  ;D


Another thing I noticed today:
It is the same in both versions of the rules, but the rules state for endscoring:
"At the end of the game, all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral"
I read this as the road tiles giving points, but the actual cathedral tile not giving any points at the end?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2020, 02:31:48 PM »
Depends, is this for scoring the road? Or scoring for the cathedral?
For the road, it would be 8 points (4 tiles, 2 per tile),
For the cathedral, it would be 4
Thanks, I needed just clarification

It is the same in both versions of the rules, but the rules state for endscoring:
"At the end of the game, all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral"
I read this as the road tiles giving points, but the actual cathedral tile not giving any points at the end?

Well this is confusing me and I'm not yet in that state of implementation and really never played this expansion because (C1 I bought 3 months ago for this Christmas as gift and C2 will replace it so I will have spare ;-).
But when you have Arcibishop at end of game on German Cathedral, you will get point for every tile of roads connected to German Cathedral. Even already finished.
It's just reading sentense without any consequenses with previous rules ;-)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia - German Cathedrals 2nd edition
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2020, 02:33:27 PM »
But I have a question:
There is a road connected to two German Cathedrals in length of 4 tiles (2 of them are German Cathedral tiles).
How many poins get Thiev?
Why I'm asking? See picture ;-)



I see....  >:D

Let's discuss road scoring with German cathedrals...

German cathedrals do not stack, the same as inns on a road. So you get the same points with one, two or more German cathedrals connected to your road network.

For a 4 tile road with no inns you would score 8 points:

4 tiles x (1 point for road tile + 1 point for German cathedrals ) = 4 tile x 2 points / tile = 8 points 


Depends, is this for scoring the road? Or scoring for the cathedral?
For the road, it would be 8 points (4 tiles, 2 per tile),
For the cathedral, it would be 4

Quite true! I was half way my reply when I saw yours in place!  :(y) :(y)

And to get back to the initial topic:
I must say I think the removal of that note actually makes things clearer for me. I read it as that the cathedral tile is only counted once for these, but it is aiming at the individual segments of the road on the tile. Meaning that a road starting and ending at the cathedral tile is counted as a road once. It makes so much sense, that having the note confuses me more. So I'm happy it was removed in the new print  ;D

The scoring of road segments separately on the German cathedral tiles messes things up. Counting tiles vs. counting road segments on a particular tile. And this is not the end of this matter...

Another thing I noticed today:
It is the same in both versions of the rules, but the rules state for endscoring:
"At the end of the game, all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral"
I read this as the road tiles giving points, but the actual cathedral tile not giving any points at the end?

The wording of the rules about the final scoring is a bit misleading, and some clarifications by HiG were needed back in the day. I tweaked a bit the wording according  in WICA.

Quote
At the end of the game unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and unfinished cathedrals give you points. Highwaymen and archbishops give you one point for each road tile leading to the cathedral (road segments on German Cathedral tiles are counted separately.)

The clarifications by HiG in 4/2016 (see https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906) indicated that:
* Highwaymen on unfinished roads are scored as usual, that is, taking into account the majority.
* Archbishops on unfinished cathedrals get 1 point per tile from all the finished and unfinished roads leading to the cathedral.
In any case, road segments on the cathedral tile are counted separately for road starting and ending at the cathedral.


Here you can find a table that summarizes all the scoring cases described in the rules (in not a very clear manner due to the lack of space):

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany#cite_note-german-cathedral-scoring-3

If you need some extra info, please check these "riddles" by Kettlefish (the question and later the answer several posts below):

* Scoring a German cathedral during the game (including inns, German castles and more):
   http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37680#msg37680

* Scoring of a German cathedral at the end of the game (including inns, German castles and more):
   http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37715#msg37715

I love her riddles!  ;D

If you like them and want more, you can find a compilation by different authors here...
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Quizzes

Enjoy!

PS: It seems it took me too long to post all this.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 03:44:57 PM by Meepledrone »


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