Author Topic: Questions about ferries with the builder, and abbots  (Read 245 times)

Offline Tomoto_17

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Questions about ferries with the builder, and abbots
« on: October 25, 2020, 01:06:11 AM »
During a turn, each ferry can only be moved once. But do the additional turns from the builder and the "draw another tile" message count as separate turns regarding this rule, or as the same turn?

And if a builder after movement of a ferry got separated from his follower, but ends up on a road with another follower from his color, do you have to return him, does he have to stay, or can you choose?


I have also a few questions about the abbot.
1) If a garden is in the vicinity of a besieged city, does this count for returning a knight from the city?
2) Are abbots on a cloisterlike building considered for counting the smallest cloisterlike building (messages), or the inquisition (wheel of fortune)?

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4842.0
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 02:27:32 AM by Tomoto_17 »

Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Ferries and the builder
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2020, 01:20:41 AM »
Need to focus of order of steps, because it's not possible to do things again and again and again.

1a. Enlarge Road/City with builder - next turn - need to check in wihch phase of game is do thing with ferry
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Ferries#cite_note-8
- so next turn is granted only when enlarge in phase before move ferry
But it was not original question as I read ;-)
1b. Yest, each turn you can move ferry because it standard turn. Only exception is that you can't do multiple next turns after enlarge feature with builder. This next turn is granted only once.
2. Loosing/Keeping builder after ferry move?
There is directly in rules of Traders and Builders:
As long as there is one of your meeples on the feature, your builder will remain. When you have no meeples on the feature, return your builder to your supply.
- so after ferry move when your Builder have no follower in your color on road, it's going back to your supply.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions about ferries with the builder, and abbots
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2020, 06:10:19 AM »
During a turn, each ferry can only be moved once. But do the additional turns from the builder and the "draw another tile" message count as separate turns regarding this rule, or as the same turn?

Need to focus of order of steps, because it's not possible to do things again and again and again.

1a. Enlarge Road/City with builder - next turn - need to check in wihch phase of game is do thing with ferry
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Ferries#cite_note-8
- so next turn is granted only when enlarge in phase before move ferry
But it was not original question as I read ;-)
1b. Yest, each turn you can move ferry because it standard turn. Only exception is that you can't do multiple next turns after enlarge feature with builder. This next turn is granted only once.

A double turn has two parts. Each one allows you to draw and place a tile, place (or move) a meeple (or figure or token) and score any completed feature. So they seem like two turns back to back, but there are some limitations: some actions can only be performed once across the two turn parts.

You can check these limitations here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Traders_and_Builders#The_double_turn

In this case, you place a tile in each turn part, so extending roads (with ferries) can happen each time and therefore moving the closest ferries to the tile placed.

Remember that extending a road means placing a tile (placing wooden bridges, if needed) that makes it larger. So the following actions would not trigger any ferry movement:
* Connecting roads by moving other ferries or connecting tunnels
* Closing a road end with an abbey

You can revisit the rules and clarifications about moving ferries here (on the same page Bumsakalaka mentioned above):   
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Ferries#1._Extending_a_road_with_a_ferry_on_it_.5B4.5D



And if a builder after movement of a ferry got separated from his follower, but ends up on a road with another follower from his color, do you have to return him, does he have to stay, or can you choose?

2. Loosing/Keeping builder after ferry move?
There is directly in rules of Traders and Builders:
As long as there is one of your meeples on the feature, your builder will remain. When you have no meeples on the feature, return your builder to your supply.
- so after ferry move when your Builder have no follower in your color on road, it's going back to your supply.

:(y) :(y)

In this case, the road changes but your builder always has a supporting meeple to stay on the feature.

You can revisit the rules Bumsakalaka is mentioning here (check the 2nd paragraph):
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Traders_and_Builders#2._Placing_a_builder



I have also a few questions about the abbot.
1) If a garden is in the vicinity of a besieged city, does this count for returning a knight from the city?

No. A garden is a different feature, the same as a German cathedral. They are not proper equivalents to monasteries (monastic building). A knight will only be able to escape a city via any of the following features:
* A cloister/monastery
* An abbey
* A cult place/shrine
* A special monastery:
  - A German monastery
  - A Ducth & Belgian monastery
  - A Japanese building
* A Darmstadt church

If you want to stick to the rules, the position o the monastic building is relevant to allow this action, since rules differ slightly:
* Besiegers / Cathars: the feature must be placed directly adjacent to a Besieger/Cathars tile
* Siege: the feature can be placed adjacent to any tile of a besieged city (even diagonally).

Please check the diverging rules here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Besiegers_Cathars_Siege_(1st_edition)#cite_note-5



2) Are abbots on a cloisterlike building considered for counting the smallest cloisterlike building (messages), or the inquisition (wheel of fortune)?

You can consider any monastic building for the scoring of Message #3 (smallest monastery). Please check this clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#cite_note-3

However, the Inquisition action of the Wheel of Fortune instructs you to count your monks. Therefore you have to discard heretics (meeples on cult places / shrines), since the action considers the role of the meeple not the feature.

So you would have to consider your meeples placed on the following features:
* A cloister/monastery
* An abbey
* A special monastery (both placed as a monk or as an abbot):
  - A German monastery
  - A Ducth & Belgian monastery
  - A Japanese building
* A Darmstadt church

Please check the following clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Wheel_of_Fortune_(1st_edition)#cite_note-9

The rules contain no limitations that would prevent players from considering meeples placed as an abbot on special monasteries. In this case, we can consider the general rule provided by Georg Wild (HiG):
Quote
If an older expansion only mentions the word monk, this does not exclude meeples placed as an abbot on a German monastery." (7/2014)

This would also apply to Japanese Buildings and Dutch & Belgian monasteries. The Wheel of Fortune is from 2009.

Check here for additional info:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Tomoto_17

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Re: Questions about ferries with the builder, and abbots
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2020, 08:03:29 AM »
However, the Inquisition action of the Wheel of Fortune instructs you to count your monks. Therefore you have to discard heretics (meeples on cult places / shrines), since the action considers the role of the meeple not the feature.

But are the wooden abbots from the new style base game called "monks" or "abbots" when placed on a cloisterlike building?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions about ferries with the builder, and abbots
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2020, 09:50:24 AM »
Ha ha ha,

Welcome to the crazy world of Carcassonne. In your mind, you have to decouple the following aspects:
* The meeple figure: regular meeple, abbot meeple, large meeple...
* The role according to the feature it occupies: a knight in a city, a highwayman on a road, a monk on a monastic building or garden, a farmer...
* The position (depending on the role):
   - highwaymen, knights, heretics, archbishops, castle lords, Baba Yaga...
      · normally placed standing
   - farmers:
      · normally placed lying down in order to avoid confusions with nearby highwayman, monks, knights... 
   - monks:
      · normally placed standing (as a monk), but
      · placed sideways on a special monastery (as an abbot) indicating it is scored at the end of the game
   - meeples trapped in a bathhouse (no particular role name):
      · placed sideways too to indicate its condition

So you may find cases like this:
- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden

Simple, right?


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