Author Topic: Question about the Flier  (Read 461 times)

Offline Tomoto_17

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Question about the Flier
« on: October 24, 2020, 04:54:02 AM »
According to the rules of the Flier, meeples can only land on roads, cities or cloisters.
However, I read on Wikicarpedia that some other projects are also allowed such as gardens, shrines, abbeys, acrobat pyramids, watchtowers. But it is not clear for me if this also includes:
1) Castles from expansion 8.
2) Other flying machines (giving chain reactions).
3) Towers (if there is no other allowed project on the tile, can you put it here or do you have to take the meeple back in stock?)

And also,
4) If place your meeple on the same tile and project as the meeple with the fairy, will the fairy also count for you (like with acrobat pyramids)?

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4840.0

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2020, 05:07:46 AM »
@Meepledrone will give you long answer mine will be short
1. Castle is not unfinished feature, so answer is no, castle is not included
2. Other flying machine no, because it's not unfinished answer, so you can choose one of unfinished feature, so not including flying machine
3. Tower - here im not sure, but I thing no, because it's not scorable feature and you can do this on any turn
4. Interesting question, but this is exception in pyranids rules for fairy use, so I quest no.

Offline tp10053

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2020, 06:40:04 AM »
Answer to questions 1,2,4 is no.

1. castle is not located on a single tile, so you cannot land here.
2. Chain reactions are not permitted, (nor with magic portals)
4. Fairy will protect that tile, but your meeple won't recieve any extra points  for it, since it is not the fairy friend.

3. is debatable - towers are described as being separate features. The old wording of the flying machines is out of date.
You can fly to any claimable non-farm features located on a single tile - which tower appears to be.
Also the reason why meeples on top of towers can be eaten by dragon is stated in the rules to be that the dragon can fly. So yes, the top of the tower should logically be reachable by flight.

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2020, 08:49:05 AM »
Hi Tomoto_17!

Welcome to the forum! Are you a newcomer to Carcassonne or have been playing for a while already?

Let me reply to your questions...

According to the rules of the Flier, meeples can only land on roads, cities or cloisters.
However, I read on Wikicarpedia that some other projects are also allowed such as gardens, shrines, abbeys, acrobat pyramids, watchtowers. But it is not clear for me if this also includes:
1) Castles from expansion 8.

Nope. Fliers cannot land on castles beacuse they are not placed on a particular tile.

You can see a clarification here addressing this matter:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#cite_note-6

This is similar to what happens with other special areas such as the interior of the City of Carcassonne, the Wheel of Fortune or the city of Carcassonne, and even the School. Check another clarification on this if interested:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#cite_ref-4

2) Other flying machines (giving chain reactions).

A flier cannot land on another flying machine or on a magic portal. You may use one of these features but they may not be chained.

You may check clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#cite_note-3

As a side note, flying machines and magic portals have one use when their tile is placed. Besides, they are features that cannot be claimed and scored, so they should not be treated as an eligible destination for a flier.

3) Towers (if there is no other allowed project on the tile, can you put it here or do you have to take the meeple back in stock?)

A flier cannot land on a tower floor. The same clarification referenced earlier would be applicable since tower floors are features that cannot be claimed and scored, so they should not be treated as an eligible destination for a flier either.

You may check this clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#cite_note-3

For the sake of clarity, I added a specific clarification in WICA in the C1 and C2 pages. Here you are the link to the C2 clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#cite_note-7

As a final comment, if meeples would be allowed to land on tower floors, you would also be open of having several meeples capping a tower...   

And also,
4) If place your meeple on the same tile and project as the meeple with the fairy, will the fairy also count for you (like with acrobat pyramids)?

The fairy only affects the meeple it is assigned to, assuming the exception of the acrobats in a pyramid.

This means that any other meeple using a flying machine and landing on the tile where the fairy is placed will not be affected  even if they share the same feature. The exception: the fairy is assigned to an acrobat and your flier lands as a new acrobat.

There was some fuzz about all this in C1 because the English mistranslations by RGG and ZMG allowed meeples on the same tile to receive fairy points. The assigned of the fairy to a meeple was lost in translation...  ;)

Check the clarifications about the Flying Machines and the Fairy here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#Fairy
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 08:54:38 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline tp10053

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2020, 09:37:07 AM »

Quote
As a side note, flying machines and magic portals have one use when their tile is placed. Besides, they are features that cannot be claimed and scored, so they should not be treated as an eligible destination for a flier.

Meepledrone, I have to heavily disagree with you on this matter. The ability of a feature to be claimed, does not automaticallly equal being able to score, or be completed. There are features that can be claimed, yet do not score any points. Prime examples are, contrary to what you stated, Flying machines and Magic portals. We know this from several long standing clarifications:

A phantom can be a flier. However, if you first use a normal follower as a flier then the second figure (the phantom) cannot use the flying machine. The flying machine is a feature, so claiming the flying machine feature with the first figure prevents the phantom from also claiming it. Thus, in this situation the phantom can only be placed on a road or on the field.

A phantom can use a magic portal. However, both a wooden follower AND the phantom cannot go through the magic portal – you must choose one or the other. This is because the magic portal is treated as a feature and the phantom is effectively a normal follower. If the first follower is placed on the magic portal, it is claiming that portal (then is moved to a feature on another tile). The phantom cannot be placed on that portal because it is a claimed feature. (1/2013)

So as you can see, the fact that these features are indeed claimable is the very reason why we cannot have chain reactions between flying machines and magic portals.

Therefore, your I believe your reasoning is not sufficient to make this conclusion on tower foundations:
Quote
A flier cannot land on a tower floor. The same clarification referenced earlier would be applicable since tower floors are features that cannot be claimed and scored, so they should not be treated as an eligible destination for a flier either.

The act of placing a meeple on top can be regarded as claiming, as it always involves placing a meeple. Based on this definition:
"Features are any aspect of the tile that can be claimed by a follower or that triggers a function."

There are other arguments why flyer should be able to land on the tower top. FAQ for the dragon/tower interaction states that dragon can eat meeple on top, because it can fly and reach the tower. It logically follows that a flying meeple should also be able to reach the top of the tower.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2020, 10:21:16 AM »
I just tell, that I like your reading of rules.
I hade multiple disputes on rules here. And I don't agree with some interpretation of rules on WikiCarpedia foot notes.
So I'm waiting for result ;-)

Offline Tomoto_17

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2020, 10:24:17 AM »
Hi Tomoto_17!

Welcome to the forum! Are you a newcomer to Carcassonne or have been playing for a while already?

I play this game for a while already. I am studying the rules for playing Mega Carcassonne and came up with this question while doing so.

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2020, 05:12:45 PM »

Quote
As a side note, flying machines and magic portals have one use when their tile is placed. Besides, they are features that cannot be claimed and scored, so they should not be treated as an eligible destination for a flier.

Meepledrone, I have to heavily disagree with you on this matter. The ability of a feature to be claimed, does not automaticallly equal being able to score, or be completed. There are features that can be claimed, yet do not score any points. Prime examples are, contrary to what you stated, Flying machines and Magic portals. We know this from several long standing clarifications:

That's correct. My point is that you can use a flier to place a meeple on any incomplete feature on a tile (except fields) you could claim to be scored eventually. I used the claimable part and the scoreable part to stress that:
* The destination feature has to be an incomplete feature located on a tile:
   - A regular tile-based feature except a field: a road, a city, a monastery, a garden, and abbey, an shrine, a special monastery (German monastery, Dutch & Belgian monastery or a Japanese building), a German castle, a German cathedral, a Darmstadt church, Baba Yaga's hut.
   - A meeple-based feature such as an acrobat pyramid.
* The destination feature cannot be a special feature or area...
   - Placed on a tile:
     · A flying machine
     · A magic portal
     · A tower floor
   - Not placed on a particular tile:
     · A castle
     · The school
     · The city of Carcassonne
     · The city of Leipzig
     · The Wheel of Fortune
* The feature may be completed or not during the game but it will be scored eventually.

A phantom can be a flier. However, if you first use a normal follower as a flier then the second figure (the phantom) cannot use the flying machine. The flying machine is a feature, so claiming the flying machine feature with the first figure prevents the phantom from also claiming it. Thus, in this situation the phantom can only be placed on a road or on the field.

A phantom can use a magic portal. However, both a wooden follower AND the phantom cannot go through the magic portal – you must choose one or the other. This is because the magic portal is treated as a feature and the phantom is effectively a normal follower. If the first follower is placed on the magic portal, it is claiming that portal (then is moved to a feature on another tile). The phantom cannot be placed on that portal because it is a claimed feature. (1/2013)

So as you can see, the fact that these features are indeed claimable is the very reason why we cannot have chain reactions between flying machines and magic portals.

I think we agree on this. During your turn, the first meeple using the flying machine or the magic portal "claims" it in order to avoid a second meeple to use it again. Besides, these features can only be used right after placing them.

There are several reasons why chaining the use of flying machines and magic portals would be a bad idea:
* You would need to track what flying machines and magic portals were already used (claimed) in previous turns.
* Mixing magic portals and flying machines would allow players to bend the limitations imposed for both:
   - Features allowed: magic portals allow you to place meeples in fields, flying machines don't.
   - Occupied features: flying machines allow you to place meeples in occupied features, magic portals don't.

In the case of flying machines, the claiming mechanism also ensures you don't have second thoughts if the result of the die roll is not to your satisfaction. So if you don't get a favorable destination feature or there is none to pick, to get your meeple back to your supply. You cannot decide to place it normally.

Therefore, your I believe your reasoning is not sufficient to make this conclusion on tower foundations:
Quote
A flier cannot land on a tower floor. The same clarification referenced earlier would be applicable since tower floors are features that cannot be claimed and scored, so they should not be treated as an eligible destination for a flier either.

The act of placing a meeple on top can be regarded as claiming, as it always involves placing a meeple. Based on this definition:
"Features are any aspect of the tile that can be claimed by a follower or that triggers a function."

There are other arguments why flyer should be able to land on the tower top. FAQ for the dragon/tower interaction states that dragon can eat meeple on top, because it can fly and reach the tower. It logically follows that a flying meeple should also be able to reach the top of the tower.

I understand what you say, but if you wanted to place the meeple on the tower in the first place, you don't need a flying machine. You can do it directly. I see the flier landing on a tower as a desirable consolation price when no other feature is available on the tile.

Getting back to the Flying Machines rules you read:

C1: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier_(1st_edition)#Placing_a_meeple
Quote
The follower must only be deployed to an unfinished structure (road, city, or cloister).

C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#2._Placing_a_meeple
Quote
Your meeple may be placed on any incomplete feature on that tile, even if that feature is already occupied by other meeples.

So the rules expect the meeple to land on a incomplete feature, that means that the feature could be potentially completed.

A tower is not a feature that can be completed and, therefore, be incomplete any time earlier. It is a special feature that can be temporarily open or closed when one meeple is on top. There is no provision in the rules so it could be occupied with more than one meeple, and towers have no notion of majority or scoring associated to them.

The C1 rules made more explicit the type of features considered initially by the rules. Therefore my stress on the fact that the target feature must be incomplete and have a scoring associated. The claimable part also wanted to stress that the feature could be occupied by one or more meeples and majority should be applied when scoring it

All this would discard a tower as a valid destination for a flier.


BTW, this matter was already discussed in the forum back in 2015 and the answer was the same: a flier cannot land on a tower.

See this post by Kettlefish. She was the person discussing clarifications with HiG until 2018 or so. She also participated in the proofreading of some rulebooks, like the one for Big Box 6.

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2089.msg28883#msg28883


PS: If you allow fliers to land on towers, you would bring more issues to the table too: Can be a tower be closed by multiple meeples? The rules of the Tower only allow you to place one meeple on a tower if it is open...  :o

« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 02:48:38 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2020, 01:31:00 AM »
Maybe it's good to saig, that Feature is something scorable.
And tower is not. IT can be stacked by Meeple to disable enlarge it, but after good dradon move, it can be reopen.
Feature can not (ok. except special monastery (German/Dutch Mon + Japanase buildings).
If we talk about official expansions ;-)

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2020, 02:48:02 AM »
As tp10053 mentioned...

Quote
"Features are any aspect of the tile that can be claimed by a follower or that triggers a function."

The issue is that things were simpler in the beginning think of the base game, I&C, T&B, River I, King and Robber.... But The Count of Carcassonne, P&D and The Tower started to make things messier:
* Special areas integrated into the playing area (city of Carcassonne and towers) where you can place meeples but cannot be scored
* Special areas (features) reserved for special actions: tower foundations where tower floors can be stacked
* Special areas (features) triggering actions: magic portals, towers
* Symbols in tiles triggering actions: princess symbol, dragon symbol
* Neutral figures: fairy, dragon, tower floors
* New mechanics: sending meeples to Carcassonne, redeploying meeples from Carcassonne, moving the dragon, removing meeples, placing meeples with magic portals, placing and scoring the fairy, capturing and exchanging meeples...

And from here on, the maze gets more and more complicated with a lot of nuances because the simple initial terms have been overlapping more a more meanings and facets...

Towers are some kind of hybrid feature: they start on a tower foundation where no meeple can be placed, but after adding a tower floor you can place a meeple on top. The objective: capping (closing) the tower so no one else can remove meeples in range. The tower is a separate feature, an oasis in the middle of the playing area where a meeple on top remains unaware of cities, roads, monasteries, fields, etc. being scored around them... A meeple can be deployed directly to an open tower, no matter where it is located... And, as you say, a dragon can reopen a tower but also another tower... (or a festival tile, or a catapult knock-out token... ahem ahem...)

This increasing complexity lead to the redefinition in C2 of the C1 wagon movement rules. The initial elegance of the wagon moving along roads after scoring a feature was torpedoed by many exceptions added to the equation plus the addition of new features that didn't allow wagons to go across: fairs (Exp. 7), bazaars (Exp. 8 ), acrobat areas and circus areas (Exp. 10) and explaining the movement of the wagon was a nightmare the same as the clarifications around it. Check this out:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#cite_note-19

Just have a look at the definition of majority in a feature:
* The basic game talks "number of meeples "
* The addition of the large meeple of the mayor overrides this definition and you have to talk about majority votes in order to handle the issue that majority is not based on the number of meeples anymore.

The same happens to the definition of feature... Life is messy and there is no turning back  ;)

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2020, 04:08:57 AM »
The same increase in complexity and word-bending happens when talking about turn, double turn, turn part and builder-turn... See below also for additional turns...

* You have a normal turn
* A builder can grant you a double turn when extending a feature containing it
* A double turn is made of two parts:
   - The first part is the initial normal turn that became a double turn due to the builder
   - The second part, also referred to as builder-turn some times, is similar to a normal turns but skipping some actions that may have happened in the first part and are supposed to happen only one during one turn (normal or double).

Here you can get the full detail of actions happening once or twice during a double turn: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Traders_and_Builders#The_double_turn

Something "simple" as per the T&B rules became a bit of a mess when combined with the fairy (Exp. 3), towers (Exp.4) and especially The Tunnel and The Plague.

Other expansions grant a full "additional normal turn" that can become double turns if the builder is involved:
* The Messages: when receiving Message #4 in C2 but Message #7 in C1.
* Exp. 8: when performing a bazaar round (Exp. 8)
* Saint Nicholas Scoreboard: when landing or going past spaces 6 and 24.

Just saying...  >:D
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 04:11:02 AM by Meepledrone »

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2020, 06:37:49 AM »
Hi Tomoto_17!

Welcome to the forum! Are you a newcomer to Carcassonne or have been playing for a while already?

I play this game for a while already. I am studying the rules for playing Mega Carcassonne and came up with this question while doing so.

If you are interested in Mega-Carcassone games, I don't know if you already checked this out with some set up suggestions:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Mega-Carcassonne

You also may find some help here with the following customizable references pages. You may select your preferred edition and what expansions (or parts of them) you plan to use. The actions and the scoring rules will be customized accordingly so you only see what you need for your game.

* Game setup:
   - Game Reference (initial sequence for final scoring)
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Reference

* Actions during the game:
   - Order of Play (detail of the sequence of actions during a turn)
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
   - Game Figures (a summary of dos and don'ts per figure and feature):
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Figures

* Scoring During the Game:
    - Scoring in full detail during the game (detail of all the scoring steps per feature and applicable bonus mapped to the Order of Play)
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence
    - Scoring summary during the game (detail of all the scoring steps per feature and applicable bonus)
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game

* Scoring After the Game:
   - Game Reference (final sequence for final scoring)
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Reference
   - Scoring after the Game (detail of all the scoring steps per feature and applicable bonus)
       http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game

And one bonus, if you want to include The Land Surveyors in your game but don't have the scoring tiles ready, you may use this simulator:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Land_Surveyors_Simulator

Let me know what you think. ;D

Enjoy!

Offline Tomoto_17

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2020, 08:08:20 AM »
If you are interested in Mega-Carcassone games, I don't know if you already checked this out with some set up suggestions:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Mega-Carcassonne

You also may find some help here with the following customizable references pages. You may select your preferred edition and what expansions (or parts of them) you plan to use. The actions and the scoring rules will be customized accordingly so you only see what you need for your game.

Let me know what you think. ;D

Enjoy!

Thank you for the links. I already saw a few of them, but not all!

Offline tp10053

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2020, 10:28:30 AM »
I agree with the things being simpler at the beginning, however the definition of a feature that I qouted is not from those early days - it already encompasses the myriad of elements that is Carcassonne. In other words, it is a viable modern definition.

As can be gathered from the rules and official clarifications: flyer can basically land anywhere on a single tile where a meeple can be placed except on a field - aka any claimable feature.
Flying machines and magic portals are claimable, but only on the turn they are placed. After that they are "closed", or you could say claimed by a game engine. That is to avoid all the things you have mentioned.

Quote
That's correct. My point is that you can use a flier to place a meeple on any incomplete feature on a tile (except fields) you could claim to be scored eventually. I used the claimable part and the scoreable part to stress that
* The destination feature has to be an incomplete feature located on a tile:[/qoute]

I know what you were trying to say, however the rules only state that feature must be claimable, not scorable

   [qoute]- A regular tile-based feature except a field: a road, a city, a monastery, a garden, and abbey, an shrine, a special monastery (German monastery, Dutch & Belgian monastery or a Japanese building), a German castle, a German cathedral, a Darmstadt church, Baba Yaga's hut.
   - A meeple-based feature such as an acrobat pyramid.
* The destination feature cannot be a special feature or area...
   - Placed on a tile:
     · A flying machine
     · A magic portal
     · A tower floor [/qoute]
This distinction you are making between a regular and special feature doesn't actually exist from the rules standpoint. They are all features falling under the collective definition mentioned earlier. A distinction that does exiest is features being claimable (by placing a meeple - road, flying machine...) and non-claimable (having only a function - a fair, bazaar...). The latter group is the one where a flyer cannot land.
Also, your inclusion of a tower floor in this section is not ideal, because that is the conclusion you are trying to reach, but here you put it as part of an argument.

   [qoute]- Not placed on a particular tile:
     · A castle
     · The school
     · The city of Carcassonne
     · The city of Leipzig
     · The Wheel of Fortune [/qoute]

Yes that is correct.

[qoute]* The feature may be completed or not during the game but it will be scored eventually.

Again, that is your conclusion, so you shouldn't use it as part of your argument for that conclusion. Nowhere is it stated that the feature you can land on must be scored eventually.

Quote
So the rules expect the meeple to land on a incomplete feature, that means that the feature could be potentially completed.

A tower is not a feature that can be completed and, therefore, be incomplete any time earlier. It is a special feature that can be temporarily open or closed when one meeple is on top. There is no provision in the rules so it could be occupied with more than one meeple, and towers have no notion of majority or scoring associated to them.

I do not believe an incomplete means, being able to be completed.  In fact, I would say that features that cannot be completed are always incomplete. For example the farms are described in the rules as being incomplete AND impossible to be completed.
Now I know the farms are one of the features where flyer cannot land, but that is an explicit exception, and I am speaking in general terms right now.
Another example are roads that end in a tunnel when playing with The Tunnel expansion - those are incomplete, yet impossible to complete unless both entrance and exit are defined. And you can definatelly land on those.
A potential to be completed is not a reqquirement - only that the feature is not already completed (for obvious reasons).

Now don't get me wrong, I am not implying that a flyer being able to land on a tower is necessarily an optimal or beneficial move. What I am asking is: "Is it mechanistically possible?" And based on what we know, the answer seems to be yes.
And if it means the tower might be occupied by more than one meeple, so be it. But that is its own separate discussion. You could easily say that the "one meeple per tower rule" overrides the "can land in occupied features" rule.

Also there are other things to consider, such as official thematic justifications for certain mechanisms that can be applied for others as well (again, the flying dragon example).

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Question about the Flier
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2020, 02:31:46 PM »
OK. Let's go back to the basics by reviewing the C2 rules about the placing a flier:

Quote
Your meeple may be placed on any incomplete feature on that tile, even if that feature is already occupied by other meeples. However, meeples placed by a flying machine can never be placed in a field, even if that field is unoccupied.

Meeples placed by a flying machine immediately become the appropriate type (highwayman, knight, or monk).

The rules are written considering the features in the base game. The point here is if we can consider a tower as per this wording:

1) A flier can land on any incomplete feature but fields.
2) The feature can be occupied or not.
3) The wording assumes cities, roads and monasteries as fields are forbidden (check the second paragraph).

So, the rules assume regular features (except fields). Those features assign a role to the meeples placed on them when occupied. They also define a feature control mechanism (the majority in the feature) and can be scored during the game (when completed) or after the game.

A tower differs from all these regular features:
* It is a feature on a tile that triggers an action (capturing meeples).
* It has no incomplete or complete state. It is open or closed (blocked) by one meeple on top. These states may alternate:
  - It can grow to increase its action range when open.
  - It cannot grow when closed.
* It does not define a scoring model (the rules do not even include a 3. Scoring a feature section). Therefore, no majority is considered for them either.

Since towers do not match the feature requirements in the rules, they should not be a valid destination for fliers.



Let's add one questions to the discussion:

A bathhouse is located on a tile. Can a flier land on a bathhouse? What if it is occupied? What if it is unoccupied? Can I score the bathhouse?

It is a parallel case to the current discussion about towers.



Regarding the application of thematic consistency to Carcassonne, I would not put much credit into it.

In this regard, Carcassonne is not very consistent across the expansions. You are asking for consistency in a game where:
* An abbot can be placed as a monk on an abbey, and it can be placed as an abbot on a special German monastery.  :o
* Exp. 8 castles offer immunity against the dragon to meeples in them but German castles don't.
* Anachronistic German cathedrals are in the middle of an open meadow allegedly French.  ;)


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