Author Topic: Quick question about Castles  (Read 357 times)

Offline WGFizban

  • Vagabond
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Merit: 0
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Quick question about Castles
« on: October 17, 2020, 02:15:13 AM »
Hi Forum
I'm new in Carcassonne and I have a question about Castles. Situation below: green player vs red. Green earlier put  :green-meeple: on a tile. A few turns later red player close his. Can green transform yours Citi in a Small Castles even if it is turn and tile of red player?


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4828.0
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 02:16:48 AM by WGFizban »

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Marquis Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 2397
  • Merit: 162
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2020, 02:30:44 AM »
Hi WGFizban,

Congrats for your first post!

The image doens't show but I'll try to reply based on you comments.

If playing with Exp. 8, when a small city is completed and is about to be scored, its owner may decide to convert it to a castle instead, no matter who completed the small city.

So, in this case if :green-meeple: controls a small city completed by :red-meeple:, :green-meeple: may decide to convert it to a castle instead of scoring 4 points right away. Depending on the context this can be good or bad for both players.  ;)

Cheers!
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline WGFizban

  • Vagabond
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Merit: 0
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2020, 07:26:34 AM »
That's exactly what I meant.
Great thank you  :D

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Marquis
  • ***
  • Posts: 562
  • Merit: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2020, 12:24:59 PM »
Well we played Flier expansion and meeple by dice goes to small city occupied by other player. When finished who decide to convert all city to castle if only one second get 4 points? If both then both occupy Castle?

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku


Offline davide

  • Labourer
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Merit: 0
  • I haven't updated my profile yet!
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2020, 02:09:28 PM »
hi, I think that if the city is incomplete, you can enter with the flying machine, then when they turn it into a castle, even those who used the flying machine will stay inside. then will decide who close it by rules, put the castle .

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Marquis Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 2397
  • Merit: 162
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2020, 02:40:24 PM »
Hi there!

You can find here a discussion on this matter back in July 2020: The dilemma at hand: several players sharing a small city... they may want to score or to convert the small and they may not agree...

>> Questions #237,b,c,d,e (spanning from posts #323-#331) starting here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4526.msg69301#msg69301

As a result, I included some clarifications in WICA summarizing the conclusions:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Castles_2

Quote
Special case: small cities and castles with multiple meeples

Small cities are normally occupied by one single meeple from one player. However, several meeples (from one or more players) may occupy the same small city if playing with Mini #1 - The Flier (Flying Machines). In this case, if only one player has the majority in the feature, that player will be the one either scoring it or converting the small city into a castle only occupied by the meeple(s) of the player with the majority.

Additionally, some special situations may arise when meeples from different players share the majority in the same small city, since each player may decide differently. So, we may encounter the following scenarios:

* All the players with the majority decide to score the small city: The city will be scored as usual taking into account the majority in the feature.

* All the players with the majority decide to convert the small city into a castle: The resulting castle will have several occupiers (the meeples from the players sharing the majority in the small city). If the castle is completed eventually, all the players sharing the castle will score points for it.

* Some of the players sharing the majority decide to score the small city and the rest choose to convert it into a castle: The players scoring the city will apply the majority without taking into consideration those meeples from players who decided to convert the small city into a castle. After scoring, the meeples involved will be returned to their owners. The castle will be created only with the meeples of the players who decided to convert the small city. If the castle is completed eventually, all the players sharing the castle will score points for it.

Additional notes:

* Deploying meeples from the city of Carcassonne: If playing with the Count of Carcassonne (Exp. 6 - Count, King & Robber), players will be allowed to deploy meeples from the city of Carcassonne to the small city only if at least one player is scoring it. All these additional meeples will participate in the scoring only. They cannot be deployed to the small city to later occupy the resulting castle if any player decided to convert it instead of scoring the small city.

* Castle tokens: Each player who chose to convert the small city into a castle will have to place a castle token from their supply on top of the small city. No player can keep their castle token for a later use because other player was placing theirs. As an alternative, instead of stacking the castle tokens, you may place only one of them and remove the rest from the game.
This means that a player without any castle tokens in their supply cannot decide to convert a shared small city into a castle. In this case, the player can only score the small city.

Hope this helps...

Offline Vital Pluymers

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 71
  • Merit: 2
  • The King
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2020, 12:28:54 AM »
Quote

Additional notes:

* Deploying meeples from the city of Carcassonne: If playing with the Count of Carcassonne (Exp. 6 - Count, King & Robber), players will be allowed to deploy meeples from the city of Carcassonne to the small city only if at least one player is scoring it. All these additional meeples will participate in the scoring only. They cannot be deployed to the small city to later occupy the resulting castle if any player decided to convert it instead of scoring the small city.


I don't think this is completely correct. The rules of the Count state that a player can decide to send his meeples to a city as soon as it is completed. There is no requirement that it should be scored. Moreover, players can also decide to deploy meeples from the City of Carcassonne to unoccupied features.

So, a player should also be allowed to send meeples from the City of Carcassonne to just completed cities independently of what other players decide to do. Evidently, if he sends a meeple from the City of Carcassonne to the completed city, he has to score it as a city. But the requirement that another player should score the city as well is invalid in my opinion.

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Marquis Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 2397
  • Merit: 162
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2020, 05:30:54 AM »
Quote

Additional notes:

* Deploying meeples from the city of Carcassonne: If playing with the Count of Carcassonne (Exp. 6 - Count, King & Robber), players will be allowed to deploy meeples from the city of Carcassonne to the small city only if at least one player is scoring it. All these additional meeples will participate in the scoring only. They cannot be deployed to the small city to later occupy the resulting castle if any player decided to convert it instead of scoring the small city.


I don't think this is completely correct. The rules of the Count state that a player can decide to send his meeples to a city as soon as it is completed. There is no requirement that it should be scored. Moreover, players can also decide to deploy meeples from the City of Carcassonne to unoccupied features.

The aim of deploying meeples from the City of Carcassonne is to take over completed features about to be scored no matter if they are occupied or not. All completed features are scored but those points may go to waste if a player cannot receive them: no meeple is occupying the feature, or a major occupies a castle or a city without coats of arms, or there is no castle  in the vicinity to receive the points...

Remember that you can deploy a meeple from the cathedral district as a monk (to a monastic building), but not as an abbot onto a German monastery, because no scoring is happening right away in this case. There is an official clarification about this in WICA:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#Count.2C_King_And_Robber

Quote
Players may deploy meeples from the cathedral district to a completed monastery about to be scored. The meeples can only be deployed as monks. Deploying meeples as abbots is not allowed since they would not participate in the scoring.

So, in a similar way, deploying meeples to a small city from Carcassonne should be associated to the scoring of the small city. Deploying them to occupy a castle-to-be would contravene the original intent.


[So, a player should also be allowed to send meeples from the City of Carcassonne to just completed cities independently of what other players decide to do. Evidently, if he sends a meeple from the City of Carcassonne to the completed city, he has to score it as a city. But the requirement that another player should score the city as well is invalid in my opinion.

My point is that:
* No deploying from Carcassonne should take place if no player is going to score the small city (all the owners agreed to build a castle).
* No meeples deployed to the small city may stay after the scoring to occupy the castle.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think that you want to stress that you may decide either to score the small city (and additionally you may deploy meeples from Carcassonne) or to convert it to a castle (so you may not deploy meeples from Carcassonne).

Offline Vital Pluymers

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 71
  • Merit: 2
  • The King
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2020, 06:58:55 AM »
The aim of deploying meeples from the City of Carcassonne is to take over completed features about to be scored no matter if they are occupied or not. All completed features are scored but those points may go to waste if a player cannot receive them: no meeple is occupying the feature, or a major occupies a castle or a city without coats of arms, or there is no castle  in the vicinity to receive the points...

Remember that you can deploy a meeple from the cathedral district as a monk (to a monastic building), but not as an abbot onto a German monastery, because no scoring is happening right away in this case. There is an official clarification about this in WICA:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#Count.2C_King_And_Robber

Quote
Players may deploy meeples from the cathedral district to a completed monastery about to be scored. The meeples can only be deployed as monks. Deploying meeples as abbots is not allowed since they would not participate in the scoring.

So, in a similar way, deploying meeples to a small city from Carcassonne should be associated to the scoring of the small city. Deploying them to occupy a castle-to-be would contravene the original intent.

I don't think this comparison is a valid one. Placed monks are not converted into abbots in the same way as knights are converted into castle owners. The decision whether to place a monk or an abbott is made in "Step 2B - Placing a meeple". It cannot be converted afterwards. It is already a special monastery from the moment it gets occupied for the first time.

In the case of cities, the conversion of a city into a castle is made in Step 3B. That means that an occupying player always at first places a meeple as a knight during Step 2, and then upgrades him to a castle owner later in Step 3B. So it's not comparable to the monastery case.

At the moment of its completion, the city is still a city, ready to be scored (similar to unoccupied completed cities). In my opinion, players should be allowed to redeploy meeples from the City of Carcassonne to that completed city as a knight. Afterwards all other players can decide whether they want to score it or to convert it to a castle (similarly as if there would be more occupants before its completion.)

[/quote]

Online Meepledrone

  • Global Moderator
  • Marquis Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 2397
  • Merit: 162
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2020, 10:26:35 AM »
The aim of deploying meeples from the City of Carcassonne is to take over completed features about to be scored no matter if they are occupied or not. All completed features are scored but those points may go to waste if a player cannot receive them: no meeple is occupying the feature, or a major occupies a castle or a city without coats of arms, or there is no castle  in the vicinity to receive the points...

Remember that you can deploy a meeple from the cathedral district as a monk (to a monastic building), but not as an abbot onto a German monastery, because no scoring is happening right away in this case. There is an official clarification about this in WICA:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Monasteries#Count.2C_King_And_Robber

Quote
Players may deploy meeples from the cathedral district to a completed monastery about to be scored. The meeples can only be deployed as monks. Deploying meeples as abbots is not allowed since they would not participate in the scoring.

So, in a similar way, deploying meeples to a small city from Carcassonne should be associated to the scoring of the small city. Deploying them to occupy a castle-to-be would contravene the original intent.

I don't think this comparison is a valid one. Placed monks are not converted into abbots in the same way as knights are converted into castle owners. The decision whether to place a monk or an abbott is made in "Step 2B - Placing a meeple". It cannot be converted afterwards. It is already a special monastery from the moment it gets occupied for the first time.

In the case of cities, the conversion of a city into a castle is made in Step 3B. That means that an occupying player always at first places a meeple as a knight during Step 2, and then upgrades him to a castle owner later in Step 3B. So it's not comparable to the monastery case.

I was not talking about placing meeples in Step 2B - Placing a meeple, but deploying meeples from the cathedral district in Carcassonne in Step 3B - Resolve Completed Features. In Step 3B you can place a meeple on a special monastery only as a monk to be scored right away. That's why you are not allowed to deploy a meeple in Carcassonne as an abbot to a special monastery... The meeple would not participate in a scoring until the end of the game.

At the moment of its completion, the city is still a city, ready to be scored (similar to unoccupied completed cities). In my opinion, players should be allowed to redeploy meeples from the City of Carcassonne to that completed city as a knight. Afterwards all other players can decide whether they want to score it or to convert it to a castle (similarly as if there would be more occupants before its completion.)

If you check the Order of Play, the first action in Step 3B says:

Quote
If a small city was created by the tile placement, the small city may be converted into a castle by the occupying player. If converted, this feature’s completion is considered to be resolved. Go to the next feature.

This happens before the following:

Quote
The player to your left may move one or more meeples from the City of Carcassonne to the current feature. Everyone has this opportunity in turn, ending with you.

So this means you have decide whether a small town is going to be scored or converted into a castle before deploying meeples to the small city score it. So if no city owner is scoring the small city, players will have no option to deploy meeples onto it.

Offline Vital Pluymers

  • Vassal
  • *****
  • Posts: 71
  • Merit: 2
  • The King
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question about Castles
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2020, 04:11:16 AM »

At the moment of its completion, the city is still a city, ready to be scored (similar to unoccupied completed cities). In my opinion, players should be allowed to redeploy meeples from the City of Carcassonne to that completed city as a knight. Afterwards all other players can decide whether they want to score it or to convert it to a castle (similarly as if there would be more occupants before its completion.)

If you check the Order of Play, the first action in Step 3B says:

Quote
If a small city was created by the tile placement, the small city may be converted into a castle by the occupying player. If converted, this feature’s completion is considered to be resolved. Go to the next feature.

This happens before the following:

Quote
The player to your left may move one or more meeples from the City of Carcassonne to the current feature. Everyone has this opportunity in turn, ending with you.

So this means you have decide whether a small town is going to be scored or converted into a castle before deploying meeples to the small city score it. So if no city owner is scoring the small city, players will have no option to deploy meeples onto it.

I had seen this as well, but was not totally sure if the steps in 3B had to be performed strictly in the described order since they are all part of Step 3B. But taking into account all the individual rules of the different features, I admit that the order of steps in Step 3B are in the most logical order.
So I agree with your conclusion  8)


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
Quick question about Essen 2016

Started by Jéré

18 Replies
5833 Views
Last post January 07, 2016, 08:24:40 AM
by Decar
xx
Quick flying machines question

Started by tp10053

9 Replies
1771 Views
Last post June 04, 2018, 05:41:46 PM
by tp10053
xx
Question about Castles and the Abbott.

Started by Piancol

6 Replies
653 Views
Last post April 03, 2020, 05:00:10 AM
by Meepledrone
clip
Carc - Bridges, Castles & Bizzares - Castle Question

Started by robnhill

3 Replies
1494 Views
Last post February 06, 2017, 01:54:32 PM
by robnhill
xx
Ebay: for the quick ones

Started by Valheru

4 Replies
1784 Views
Last post November 26, 2016, 02:56:13 AM
by totor66