Author Topic: The Plague questions.  (Read 519 times)

Offline Drodo

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The Plague questions.
« on: August 30, 2020, 04:10:59 PM »
1- The printed English rules I have say that in every turn, each player *must* move or place a flea chip. But all other translations I've seen say that each player *may* move or place a flea chip. So, is it optional or mandatory to move them?

2- If the highest plague outbreak tile is isolated from the rest of the board, connected only by an inactive outbreak tile, what happens? The rules say that fleas can never be placed on outbreak tiles. The only adjacent tile to the outreak tile is a tile where no fleas can be placed.

3- If there is only one active plague region, and all 18 fleas are active, it says that you must take one of the active fleas and place it elsewhere. Can you take one flea chip from the middle that would disconnect all others from the outbreak tile? Do all of them become inactive? Or, can you only move fleas in a way that all of them remain connected to the outbreak tile?

4- In what phase of a turn must the fleas be moved? At the beginning or any time?

5- Can the game have 3 or more active regions at the same time, if there are fleas in the supply still?

6- Does the fairy protect from the fleas?

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4780.0
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 07:58:23 PM by Drodo »

Offline tp10053

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2020, 07:22:24 AM »
Quote
The printed English rules I have say that in every turn, each player *must* move or place a flea chip. But all other translations I've seen say that each player *may* move or place a flea chip. So, is it optional or mandatory to move them?
You must do it, it is mandatory.

Quote
If the highest plague outbreak tile is isolated from the rest of the board, connected only by an inactive outbreak tile, what happens? The rules say that fleas can never be placed on outbreak tiles. The only adjacent tile to the outreak tile is a tile where no fleas can be placed.
I am not sure I understand this question. Situation you describe can never happen as any inactive fleas connected to an active outbreak automatically become active again.

Quote
If there is only one active plague region, and all 18 fleas are active, it says that you must take one of the active fleas and place it elsewhere. Can you take one flea chip from the middle that would disconnect all others from the outbreak tile? Do all of them become inactive? Or, can you only move fleas in a way that all of them remain connected to the outbreak tile?
You can move a flea in such a way that a swarm becomes disconnected, yes. However, noly those fleas which are no longer connected to an active outbreak will become inactive.

Quote
In what phase of a turn must the fleas be moved? At the beginning or any time?
Any time.

Quote
Can the game have 3 or more active regions at the same time, if there are fleas in the supply still?
Yes.

Quote
Does the fairy protect from the fleas?
No, but you can always resort to a house rule.

Offline Drodo

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2020, 07:50:30 AM »
Quote
If the highest plague outbreak tile is isolated from the rest of the board, connected only by an inactive outbreak tile, what happens? The rules say that fleas can never be placed on outbreak tiles. The only adjacent tile to the outreak tile is a tile where no fleas can be placed.
I am not sure I understand this question. Situation you describe can never happen as any inactive fleas connected to an active outbreak automatically become active again.

I cant post a photo but I mean, imagine Outbreak tile 1 has been inactive for a while somewhere around the edge of the board. Then we are on outbreak 4 and all fleas are already active. Then outbreak 5 tile is drawn and it is placed right next to the old Outbreak 1 tile, in away that outbreak tile 5 is not connected to any tiles except outbreak 1, where no fleas can ever be placed.

Since all fleas were already active when this happens, outbreak tile 4 and all of its fleas become inactive. In the following turns, fleas must be spread from outbreak 5 but there are no available tiles where to put the fleas. What happens then? Cant move any fleas until outbreak 6 is placed? Or a tile next to outbreak 5?

And what if outbreak 6 is also placed next to outbreak 5 only?

Offline tp10053

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2020, 09:29:32 AM »
Thank you for clarifying, now I understand.
It is a very good question. I guess you would have to wait until a legal tile is placed to spread the Plague.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2020, 12:32:01 PM »
Quote
If the highest plague outbreak tile is isolated from the rest of the board, connected only by an inactive outbreak tile, what happens? The rules say that fleas can never be placed on outbreak tiles. The only adjacent tile to the outreak tile is a tile where no fleas can be placed.
I am not sure I understand this question. Situation you describe can never happen as any inactive fleas connected to an active outbreak automatically become active again.

I cant post a photo but I mean, imagine Outbreak tile 1 has been inactive for a while somewhere around the edge of the board. Then we are on outbreak 4 and all fleas are already active. Then outbreak 5 tile is drawn and it is placed right next to the old Outbreak 1 tile, in away that outbreak tile 5 is not connected to any tiles except outbreak 1, where no fleas can ever be placed.

Since all fleas were already active when this happens, outbreak tile 4 and all of its fleas become inactive. In the following turns, fleas must be spread from outbreak 5 but there are no available tiles where to put the fleas. What happens then? Cant move any fleas until outbreak 6 is placed? Or a tile next to outbreak 5?

And what if outbreak 6 is also placed next to outbreak 5 only?

This is correct as per the rules: Outbreak 4 is the only active one in one big plague region with the 18 fleas token on their active side. Outbreak 5 is placed so it is next to the Outbreak 4 tile but not touching any of the flea tokens. This would be similar to the special case in the rules, normally thought for a new outbreak isolated from the previous one. In this case, as soon as you turn the Outbreak 4 token to its inactive side, all the fleas are disconnected from the only active outbreak, so they go to latent state.

If Outbreak 5 would touch any fleas, you may treat this case as the merging of two regions:
* The Outbreak 4 token would be turned over
* Any flea tokens connected to the Outbreak 5 tile would stay active
* Any flea tokens connected to the Outbreak 4 tile but not to the Outbreak 5 tile would be turned to their latent state

Getting back to your questions, if the Outbreak 5 tile is only connected to the now inactive Outbreak 4 tile, no flea tokens can be moved until one or more tile is placed next to the Outbreak 5 tile or, as you mention, the Outbreak 6 tile is placed and there is room next to it to place flea tokens.

Note that if only one tile is placed next to the Outbreak 5, only one flea token could be moved and the plague could not spread for the time being. So the plague would be contained this way temporarily.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2020, 12:35:38 PM »
Quote
In what phase of a turn must the fleas be moved? At the beginning or any time?
Any time.

The rules indicate players have to spread the plague every turn since the first outbreak is active except those turns a plague source is placed. The rules do not provide a specific point during a player’s turn to perform the spreading of the plague. However, due to the incompatibility of placing a plague source tile and spreading the plague, players will have to address two issues during their turns:
* Is it valid to spread the plague?
* If valid, when?

The first issue required to know what tile is placed. This means that players won’t be able to answer this question until the tile they drew is placed. This implies that players cannot spread the plague until phase 1. Placing a tile is done. At this point, if spreading the plague is allowed, they will be able to decide when. Depending on the context, they may decide to do it:

* At the beginning of phase 2. Placing a meeple: In this case it may be interesting to place a flea to vacate a feature the player may control and possible score this turn. You may also find interesting to remove one of your meeples or special figures to placed it during this turn: a possible better location, the figure may be trapped in an incomplete feature...

* At the end of phase 2. Placing a meeple: In this case, it may be interesting to remove a meeple or special figure from a feature about to be scored.

* At the end of phase 3. Scoring a feature: In this case, it may be interesting to remove a meeple or special figure for future purposes, for example, a wagon that just moved, a trapped meeple...

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2020, 04:41:18 AM »
This topic invited me to revisit the rules of The Plague and its clarifications. I put together the following images in order to see how the actions described in the rules match the turn sequence. I came across some surprises in the process...

Note: The images can be clicked to display them full size.

You can find here how actions are performed during the turn sequence. Actions like adding a place source tile (adding an outbreak) or eradicating an outbreak are located at specific points of the turn sequence. However, spreading the plague or fleeing the plague happen at the player's discretion.



Two surprises awaited here:

I) Players may not spread the plague at any moment

Spreading the plague cannot happen during phase 1. Placing a tile, since you can only spread the plague once you know you have not placed a plague source tile with a new outbreak. Otherwise you would contradict the rules.

II) Double turns and spreading the plague: clarifications and contradictions

The CAR indicates that you can only spread the plague once in a double turn. If you think this through, this ruling may lead to conflicts with the rules. Moreover, this ruling is contradicted by another set of clarifications provided by HiG. Let me elaborate starting from the available clarifications...

The clarification in the CAR (and in WICA as of today) about double turns and the plague was provided by Georg Wild in 11/2013 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=531.msg5636#msg5636). This clarification indicates that players can only spread the plague once in a double turn.

Additionally, there are a number of clarifications put together by Christian Hermann, mentioned at CarcF. His clarifications about the plague (last updated in 12/2014) indicate that players spread the plague each part of a double turn. This ruling contradicts the previous one and makes more sense than the previous one as we will see next.
 
Spreading the plague is an action that depends on the tile being placed in a particular turn once the plague is active. Some conflicting scenarios may show up if sticking to Georg Wild’s ruling during a double turn, for example:
* First part of the turn: you spread the plague after placing a non-plague related tile that grants you a double turn.
* Second part of the turn: you draw a plague source tile. You have to place this tile but you already spread the plague.

As a consequence, the spreading the plague action should be allowed to happen each part of a double turn, since each tile being placed will dictate if the action can be performed.

Any thoughts?



Additionally, you can find next three flowcharts that put together the logic of three more complex actions of the expansion, that you can find scattered throughout the rules:

(A) Adding an outbreak, covering all the actions related to placing a plague source tile and possibly merging active areas. It also covers the exception (special case) when adding an outbreak turns the previous one inactive if it had all the available fleas. 



Notes:
* 1. Place a new outbreak: This step is very straight forward.
* 2A. Eradicate previous outbreak (exception): If the new outbreak is isolated from the new one and it grouped all the 18 fleas, the rules instruct you to turn this previous outbreak inactive along with its fleas as a special case.
* 2B. Manage merged regions: As an alternative to the previous case, you may find out that the new outbreak tile may merge two or more plague regions in different states, so you will have to deal with them:
   - Active regions with a previous active outbreak: You will need to keep active only the newest outbreak and turn any disconnected fleas to latent state.
   - Inactive regions with latent fleas : You vill need to turn these fleas to active state.


(B) Spreading the plague, covering all the action associated with choosing and placing a flea, removing any cut-off regions caused when moving a flea token on the board and merging active areas.



Notes:
* 1. Place new flea token: If there is room for a flea token to be placed, you'll have to choose the source of the flea token to place:
   - 1. Pick a flea token from the supply, if any
   - 2. Otherwise, you move a latent flea taken placed on the board
   - 3. Finally, if only active flea tokens are available, move one of them
* 2. Manage cut-off active flea regions: If a latent or an active flea token was moved, any disconnected active flea region with no active outbreak will have to be turned inactive.
* 3. Manage merged regions: Same case as with the addition of a new outbreak above, you may find out that the newly placed flea token may merge two or more plague regions in different states, so you will have to deal with them:
   - Active regions with a previous active outbreak: You will need to keep active only the newest outbreak and turn any disconnected fleas to latent state.
   - Inactive regions with latent fleas : You vill need to turn these fleas to active state.


(C) Eradicating an outbreak, covering the case dealing with the removal of the oldest active outbreak when there are several active outbreaks and all the 18 flea tokens are active on the board.



Notes:
* 1. Eradicate oldest outbreak: This action is quite straight forward. You just turn over the oldest active outbreak and all its connected fleas, if any. This action may affect no fleas but this is not an issue. If the situation persists, additional outbreaks will be turned inactive in subsequent tuns until only some fleas are turned to their latent state or only one active outbreak remains.



Let me know if this exercise helped you or need some additional clarifications.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 04:43:53 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2020, 06:54:41 AM »
What a beauty of a lot of nice diagrams ;-)

Offline Drodo

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2020, 03:25:58 PM »
Feels like a class with Power Point!

To avoid the conflict on the rules about placing a flea before placing a tile and then drawing an outbreak region tile, where you are not supposed to spread the plague, I think the simple solution would be:

1- Draw a tile.
2a- Outbreak tile? If yes, place the tile and you cannot move any fleas.
2b- Outbreak tile? If not, you can move the fleas before placing it.

Also about "double turns" with the Builder, I wouldnt call it a double turn, it's still one turn but longer and you can only move 1 flea, or place 1 tunnel chip in the other expansion. If it really was a double turn, it wouldnt have any restrictions such as not allowing a chain-effect with the builder if you kept adding more tiles to the feature it is on, drawing more and more tiles.

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2020, 01:53:22 AM »
Very nice and clear graphs!
I like it  :D

I agree with Drodo though that it should be possible to move a flea token just after drawing the tile. Once you have seen that it features no outbreak symbol and you have confirmed that it is possible to place the tile, there is no objection to move the flea token before the tile placement. And that is very powerful, since it allows you to remove an opponent's follower before the feature is completed by the tile you are placing.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2020, 02:25:46 AM »
Yep... I saw that, but for the sake of simplicity, I excluded phase 1. Placing a tile completely. Placing the flea token right before placing the tile (at the beginning of Step 1C) or right after placing the tile (at the end of Step 1C or in Step 2A) does not impact the game much. Meeples cannot change their position at that point. But placing flea tokens as late as Step 2A allows you to place the flea on the tile just placed, if needed (not the case if doing it at the beginning of Step 1C).

I know what you mean, but vacating a feature right before it is completed or right after does not affect you. In both cases you can place a meeple on the feature and score points for it. You won't verify if the feature is occupied at least until Step 2B-1, so you have enough margin to remove an opponent's meeple (in Step 1C or in Step 2A, or even at the beginning of Step 2B-1 or Step 2B-2, if decided so) and claim the feature with one of your meeples (in Step 2B-1 or Step 2B-2).

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2020, 07:57:30 AM »
The best explanation of the plague. I love the algorithms you have made meepledrone. Will this be put on the wica?
'Connected field segments are called farms'  - The Weed Guru

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Plague questions.
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2020, 08:00:51 AM »
No doubt. I'm just finding a way to allow the translation of the flowcharts... The worst that can happen is that we need a set of images per language...  :o

Thanks for you kind words!  ;D


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