Poll

The next auctioneer in a bazaar is... (always skipping the players who already bought a tile)

Option #1: The next player to the left of the previous buyer...
1 (14.3%)
Option #2: The next player to the left of the previous auctioneer...
1 (14.3%)
Option #3: The next player to the left of the active player...
3 (42.9%)
Another option (please comment below)
2 (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Author Topic: Player sequence when auctioning tiles  (Read 746 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« on: May 24, 2020, 08:26:55 AM »
I wanted to share with you one particular topic that has ben haunting me for quite a while: the order the players conduct the auctions in a Exp. 8 bazaar.

Carcassonne93 asked and innocent question on WICA and I sat down to research the topic at last. So far I haven't found a conclusion. Maybe other members can shed some light on this particular point. Let me explain the issue...



The original bazaar auction rules indicate a sequence to decide the auctioneers, that is, that players who pick a tile and conduct an auction:
* The first auctioneer is the player to the left of the active player (the one who played the bazaar tile).
* The following auctioneers are decided by selecting "the next player who has not yet bought a tile during this bazaar." 
* The last remaining player with no tile will not conduct an auction but pick the last tile for free.

Bullets #1 and #3 are clear but bullet #2 is open to interpretation. So far I have come across three of them:

* Option #1: The next player to the left of the previous buyer, skipping any players who bought a tile.
   -  Found in the Exp. 8 rules by ZMG for C1 and C2.
* Option #2: The next player to the left of the previous auctioneer, skipping any players who bought a tile.
   - Found in a rules consolidation found on CarcF (section 19.5.3.2 on page 44): Carcassonne-Auslegung.pdf
   - Implemented in CloisterZone.
* Option #3: The next player to the left of the active player, skipping any players who bought a tile.
   - Found in the Exp. 8 rules by RGG for C1
   - Found in a discussion found in BGG: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1375790/bazaars



Let's illustrate these options with an example: There are 5 players A, B, C, D and E. A is the active player, so the first auctioneer is B.  The tile auctioned by B is bought by D. Who is the next auctioneer?

>> Option #1:

Current situation: A (active player) - B (auctioneer) - C (no tile yet) - D (buyer) - E (no tile yet)

Next auctioneer: E

B sold their tile and the next auctioneer will be the next player to the left of the buyer with no tile yet, in this case, D.

In general, this option may generate a random sequence of auctioneers.

>> Option #2:

Current situation: A (active player) - B (auctioneer) - C (no tile yet) - D (buyer) - E (no tile yet)

Next auctioneer: C

B sold their tile and the next auctioneer will be the next player to their left with no tile yet, in this case, C.

In general, the auctioneers will be chosen in clockwise order advancing at least one player after each auction.

>> Option #3:

Current situation: A (active player) - B (auctioneer) - C (no tile yet) - D (buyer) - E (no tile yet)

Next auctioneer: B

B will be the next auctioneer until he or she buys a tile.

In general, the auctioneers will be chosen in clockwise order always starting from the player to the left of the active player. This means B will be the auctioneer until he or she buys a tile.



The CAR v7.4 uses the same neutral wording as the German rules and adds a clarification about the RGG rules adding a sentence stating that the previous auctioneer could be also the new auctioneer if he/she didn't by the tile. So the interpretation by RGG seems to follow option #3 as I mentioned before. No mention of the ZMG C1 version of the rules though (available since 2013 and leaning towards option #1).

So far, WICA used the wording found in ZMG C2 rules, but I'm suspicious the ZMG version of the rules may have also been mistranslated at this point. It is not the first time it happens.

Still trying to find a solution to this conundrum to which is the original intent of HiG.

What is your opinion on this matter? Do you have any additional piece of information you could share about all this? Thanks in advance for sharing.

Cheers!

PS: OMG! This is my 1700th post and still concerned about basic Carcassonne stuff!  :o

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4667.0
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 09:11:15 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Halfling

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2020, 11:25:10 AM »
I very rarely use this expansion as I find the auctioning a disruption to the gameplay. But when we have a campaign during lunch hours using all the major c2 expansions it does get an airing. Option 1 is definitely how I read the c1 rules when I first picked up the expansion and not ever having looked for alternatives I stick with them.
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2020, 12:33:46 PM »
Your C1 rules are by ZMG, right?

Offline Halfling

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2020, 01:35:05 PM »
Yes, I was late to the Carcassonne party.

Offline cicerunner

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2020, 01:38:56 PM »
My opinion, FWIW, is based purely on this thread. I have no experience of the expansion concerned.

My natural understanding of the quoted rules is option 2. As an English (UK) speaker it seems natural to me to interpret the following ...
Quote
the next player who has not yet bought a tile during this bazaar
.. as if the additional meaning, added in brackets below, was also present.
Quote
the next player (to the left of the current auctioneer) who has not yet bought a tile during this bazaar

Since there is no explicit definition to provide a new meaning to 'next player' it seems logical to reuse the original definition.

This all seemed simple enough when I began to compose my response. Now however I can see the following ...

Firstly, there is no clear implication of how the next auctioneer is to be chosen - I have mistakenly conflated 'player' with 'auctioneer'!

Secondly, even to the extent that my logic stands up, this is only my inference. There is no information such gives us insight into the author's intention ...

Hmm. I can't get it any clearer in my head than that. If this actually helps, I shall be amazed!


« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 01:42:25 PM by cicerunner »

Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2020, 02:04:31 PM »
It will be better to write not "to the left side" because players can play in other direction - because of choose or fan expansion (I forget which one).
Better will be next player, or something which affect current direction of players

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2020, 12:25:38 AM »
Rules tends to describe the mechanics following the simplest case by default. That's why they sometimes fall short.

In this case you are assuming players follow a clockwise order but switching it in your game to a counterclockwise order shouldn't be a problem no matter the wording. It it just changing from "to the left" to "to the right" while carrying out the instructions.  ;D

Offline dirk2112

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2020, 08:37:24 PM »
So what you do is wait for the last bazaar tile to come out.  If you are definitely not winning the game, bid 1,000 points for a tile.  No one in your group will ever play with bazaars ever again. 

You are welcome.   >:D

In all seriousness, the variant rule is the way to go. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 08:39:18 PM by dirk2112 »

Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 01:03:30 AM »
So what you do is wait for the last bazaar tile to come out.  If you are definitely not winning the game, bid 1,000 points for a tile.  No one in your group will ever play with bazaars ever again. 

You are welcome.   >:D

In all seriousness, the variant rule is the way to go.

I don't have expansion with bazaar but it sounds "crazy"  O0

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 12:40:54 PM »
Using bazaars as a kingmaking mechanism has been around for a while...

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3187.0

Normally, players agree to cap the bids beforehand...  ^-^

Offline wolnic

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2020, 01:36:26 PM »
It will be better to write not "to the left side" because players can play in other direction - because of choose or fan expansion (I forget which one).

That would be Leven's Carousels.
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Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Player sequence when auctioning tiles
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 03:00:25 PM »
Yes. +1


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