Author Topic: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions  (Read 851 times)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« on: May 07, 2020, 01:21:29 AM »
I'm little confused with this scoring tile here in WikiCarcapedia Scoring by Feature:

When it's indicated x2 it means that final scoring per finished road has to be doubled.
In rules is written: Street Fair | During the scoring of a road you receive twice as many points.

So if I have an inn on road, i will get (Length of street + Length of street by Inn rule +1 per tile) * 2 per Street Fair.

If idea will be, that it had to be online +1 for every tile, it will be written like in Pilgrimage Route.

So when we are saing, that abbot can be put to german/dutch/japan monastery/builging as abbot and take it back during 2nd phase, because it's abbot, will will also have to follow rules for Land surveyours. When it's written that you receive twice as many points it's not +1, it's *2 at final value of road.

So I thing this scoring tile had to be as last in scoring road scoring table a final. And this scoring tile has to be scored exacly as written in rules: During the scoring of a road you receive twice as many points. (not just +1 per tile)


Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4641.0

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2020, 10:21:23 AM »
I'm little confused with this scoring tile here in WikiCarcapedia Scoring by Feature:

When it's indicated x2 it means that final scoring per finished road has to be doubled.
In rules is written: Street Fair | During the scoring of a road you receive twice as many points.

So if I have an inn on road, i will get (Length of street + Length of street by Inn rule +1 per tile) * 2 per Street Fair.

If idea will be, that it had to be online +1 for every tile, it will be written like in Pilgrimage Route.

So when we are saing, that abbot can be put to german/dutch/japan monastery/builging as abbot and take it back during 2nd phase, because it's abbot, will will also have to follow rules for Land surveyours. When it's written that you receive twice as many points it's not +1, it's *2 at final value of road.

So I thing this scoring tile had to be as last in scoring road scoring table a final. And this scoring tile has to be scored exacly as written in rules: During the scoring of a road you receive twice as many points. (not just +1 per tile)


Ha ha ha!

I passed through all imaginable phases when pondering all this... This is my summary: Why didn't use the "+1" notation? And then I saw this in my mind's eye:



It would be extremely odd to express that each road tile in a road tile get a (+1) points. It is simpler to say a road is worth twice its nominal value. The former format was used for all the "conditional" modifications to points per tile.

I agree with you that the meaning of the scoring tiles can have a lot of side effects when combined with other expansions.

I've been at a conundrum with these two tiles (one of them a great friend of yours already), since they arise many questions in my mind:

* Street Fair:


Question: When shall apply the effect?
  A) To the basic score per tile? That is, at the very beginning 1 point / tile --> 2 points / tile
  B) Right after the core feature score is done and before any bonus to the feature? That is, after German cathedrals and inns, but before bonuses (Mage/Witch, Little buildings,...)
  C) At the very end of the feature scoring? That is, after little buildings, German castles, bathhouses,...
 
My interpretation is that:
1) The x2 is short hand for +1 for every tile
2) It should be applied in similar conditions to the base game, that is, on top of the 1 points / tile and before anything else.


* Bad Neighborhood:


Questions: When shall apply the effect?
   A) Just to the core feature scoring affecting the points scored by the city + Cathars + cathedrals?
   B) At the very beginning so those tiles are not considered for Watchtowers, the city scoring including cathedrals, Mage, Witch,...?

My interpretation is that:
1) It should be applied in similar conditions to the base game, that is, on top of the 2 points / tile and before anything else.
2) If so, it so it does not affect Mage bonus or Watchtower bonus or German castles bonus

I include two examples to jog all this:

* Example 1: Street Fair



* Example 2: Bad Neighborhood



What is the scoring sequence in each case? How are the bonuses affected by the Land Surveyors scoring tiles? In the second example, what happens with tiles with several city segments when at least one of them is a semicircular one?  :o

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:28:51 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2020, 08:51:31 AM »
* Street Fair:


Question: When shall apply the effect?
  A) To the basic score per tile? That is, at the very beginning 1 point / tile --> 2 points / tile
  B) Right after the core feature score is done and before any bonus to the feature? That is, after German cathedrals and inns, but before bonuses (Mage/Witch, Little buildings,...)
  C) At the very end of the feature scoring? That is, after little buildings, German castles, bathhouses,...
 
My interpretation is that:
1) The x2 is short hand for +1 for every tile
2) It should be applied in similar conditions to the base game, that is, on top of the 1 points / tile and before anything else.

* Example 1: Street Fair



Let's see the scoring if we apply each option above with the x2 literal interpretation:



A) We apply the Street Fair to the basic score per tile:

In this case, we can see that [points per tile] + 1 point per tile for the Street Fair = [points per tile] x 2 for the Street Fair

- Core feature: 7 road tiles x ( ( 1 point / tile for the road x 2 for the Street Fair ) + 1 point / tile for the German cathedral + 1 point / tile for the inn) = 7 x 4 = 28 points
- Core feature with Witch = 28 points / 2 = 14 points
- Feature bonus = 4 + 3 + 4+ 3 = 14 points
   - Labyrinth = 2 meeples x 2 points / meeple (assuming advanced rules) = 4 points
   - Little Building = 3 points (assuming advanced rules)
   - Bathhouse = 4 points
   - German castle = 3 points

Total points = 14 points for core feature with Witch + 14 for feature bonus = 28 points for :yellow-meeple: and :blue-meeple:



B) We apply the Street Fair right after the core feature score is done and before any bonus to the feature (including the scoring based on tiles):

- Core feature: ( 7 road tiles x (1 point / tile for the road + 1 point / tile for the German cathedral + 1 point / tile for the inn)  ) x 2 for the Street Fair = ( 7 x 3 ) x 2 = 42 points
- Core feature with Witch = 42 points / 2 = 21 points
- Feature bonus = 4 + 3 + 4+ 3 = 14 points
   - Labyrinth = 2 meeples x 2 points / meeple (assuming advanced rules) = 4 points
   - Little Building = 3 points (assuming advanced rules)
   - Bathhouse = 4 points
   - German castle = 3 points

Total points = 21 points for core feature with Witch + 14 for feature bonus = 35 points for :yellow-meeple: and :blue-meeple:



C) We apply the Street Fair at the very end of the feature scoring (including the total scoring for tiles and feature bonuses):

- Core feature: 7 road tiles x (1 point / tile for the road + 1 point / tile for the German cathedral + 1 point / tile for the inn) = 7 x 3  = 21 points
- Core feature with Witch = 21 points / 2 = 11 points (rounded up)
- Feature bonus = 4 + 3 + 4+ 3 = 14 points
   - Labyrinth = 2 meeples x 2 points / meeple (assuming advanced rules) = 4 points
   - Little Building = 3 points (assuming advanced rules)
   - Bathhouse = 4 points
   - German castle = 3 points

Total points = ( 11 points for core feature with Witch + 14 for feature bonus ) x 2 for the Street Fair = 50 points for :yellow-meeple: and :blue-meeple:



We can see that the later step we apply the Street Fair scoring tile the higher number of points scored for the feature.

As I commented above, option A) would be closer to the original intent by HiG: score extra points per tile.

Any comments?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 10:02:07 AM by Meepledrone »

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2020, 10:01:20 AM »
* Bad Neighborhood:


Questions: When shall apply the effect?
   A) Just to the core feature scoring affecting the points scored by the city + Cathars + cathedrals?
   B) At the very beginning so those tiles are not considered for Watchtowers, the city scoring including cathedrals, Mage, Witch,...?

My interpretation is that:
1) It should be applied in similar conditions to the base game, that is, on top of the 2 points / tile and before anything else.
2) If so, it so it does not affect Mage bonus or Watchtower bonus or German castles bonus

* Example 2: Bad Neighborhood



Some initial comments:
* Tile A1 (pointy hat): This city segment is not a real semicircular one, so it is considered for scoring.
* Tile C1 (semicircular segment with bridge): The city segment with a bridge is not a real semicircular one, so it is considered for scoring. Note: This semicircular city segment cannot be used to build a castle either.
* Tile D1 (two semicircular segments): Since both of them are included in the same city, the tile is completely ignored.
* Tiles E2, E3-4, C4 (semicircular city segments): To be ignored as per the rules.
* Tile D3 (semicircular segment plus a non-semicircular segment): the tile is considered as there is a non-semicircular city segment to be considered for scoring.

The feature breakdown is as follows:
* 8 tiles to be considered for city scoring
* 5 tiles to be not considered for city scoring. These tiles contains several modifiers and feature bonus that may be handled differently according to the use of the Lad Surveyors scoring tile.
* 5 coats of arms

Let's see the scoring if we apply each option above:



A) We apply Bad Neighborhood just to the core feature scoring, affecting the points scored by the city + Cathars + cathedrals:

- Watchtower: 5 x 1 point / tile with city segments = 5 points for  :yellow-meeple:
- Feature scoring = 13 points for Core feature with Witch + 9 points for feature bonus = 22 points for :blue-meeple:
  - Core feature: ( 8 tiles [excluding semicircular ones] + 5 coats of arms ) x ( 2 base points - 1 point for siege + 1 point for cathedral) = 13 x 2 = 26 points
  - Core feature with Witch = 26 points / 2 = 13 points 
  - Feature bonus = 9 points
    - Little building = 2 points (assuming advanced rules)
    - German castle = 3 points
    - Bathhouse = 4 points
- Fairy bonus = 3 points for :blue-meeple:



B) We apply Bad Neighborhood to its full extent so not only tiles but also bonuses on them are ignores during scoring:

- Watchtower (ignored): (3 x 1 point / considered tile with city segments) x 0 for the semicircular segment with the watchtower  = 0 points for :yellow-meeple:
- Feature scoring = 39 points for Core feature with Witch + 4 points for feature bonus = 43 points for :blue-meeple:
  - Core feature: ( 8 tiles [excluding semicircular ones] + 5 coats of arms ) x ( 2 base points + (-1 point for [ignored] siege x 0) + 1 point for cathedral) = 13 x 3 = 39 points
  - Core feature with [ignored] Witch = 39 points (witch is ignored) 
  - Feature bonus = 4 points
    - [Ignored] little building = (2 points (assuming advanced rules) x 0 = 0 points
    - [Ignored] German castle = (3 points x 0 ) = 0 points
    - Bathhouse = 4 points
- [Ignored] fairy bonus = (3 points x 0) = 0 points for :blue-meeple:



We can see that the outcome differs a lot depending on how radically we apply the Bad Neighborhood scoring tile.

As I commented above, option A) would be closer to the original intent by HiG: ignore semicircular tiles just in the city scoring.

Any comments?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2020, 10:26:15 AM »
Ok. I understand it can be a lot of points. Anyway, very nice examples.

But:
Expansion 1 Inns & Cathedrals rule says:
When you complete a road with one or more inns, you receive 2 points per tile with a segment of this completed road (instead of the normal 1 point per tile).
- this equals +1 per tile

Mini expansion The Land Surveors rule says:
x2Street Fair During the scoring of a road you receive twice as many points.
- this not equals +1 per tile this is exactly Scrore for road without scoring tile * 2.


Online Meepledrone

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2020, 11:41:05 AM »
If you play with the basic game, +1 and x2 work the same... This is the scope of the Land Surveyors...

This is why I think they made this change to make the reading easier...



And that's why I would apply Land Surveyor scoring tiles right after the tile nominal tile value or as soon as as the core of the feature is scored (Wealth and Poverty) in order to replicate the same conditions of the base game it was designed for. This may seem a leap of faith but you will avoid the points going wild or the need for a lot of clarifications. ;D

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2020, 01:11:05 PM »
I don't know.
In the case, that you are applying rule from Mage and Witch: The witch halves the points of the scored feature (rounded up). - only for core feature without any bonus, in this case you're right.
 
But when you check rules for Mage & Witch from BixBox 4: When evaluating a road with an inn or a city with a cathedral that also has the Witch, the feature’s points are calculated using the inn or cathedral and then cut in half.

So, rule is apllying after bonuses.

Which rule is correct? I'm for BixBox4 style ;-)
*1/2 or *2 for final score of feature

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 01:43:50 PM »
I don't know.
In the case, that you are applying rule from Mage and Witch: The witch halves the points of the scored feature (rounded up). - only for core feature without any bonus, in this case you're right.
 
But when you check rules for Mage & Witch from BixBox 4: When evaluating a road with an inn or a city with a cathedral that also has the Witch, the feature’s points are calculated using the inn or cathedral and then cut in half.

So, rule is apllying after bonuses.

Which rule is correct? I'm for BixBox4 style ;-)
*1/2 or *2 for final score of feature

The base rules of Mage & Witch are from 2012 considering only the base game (the same as The Land Surveyors). Big Box 4 overrides/clarifies the basic rules when interacting with inns and cathedrals later.

You also have this clarification from 2014 too:

* "The points from the little buildings are still considered part of the score for the primary feature, just added after other modifications (such as inn/cathedral and mage/witch). Points from the little buildings are not a separate scoring event for the purposes of robbers, messages, and the teacher."

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Little_Buildings_(1st_edition)#cite_note-3

* "An unfinished road with an inn and an unfinished city with a cathedral, which normally score 0 points, instead score 1 point per tile at the end of the game when the Mage is on the feature (pennants in the city score 0 points)."

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Mage_and_Witch_(1st_edition)#Final_scoring

So the scoring order is have that Mage and Witch is applied after the inns and cathedrals even after the game so you can get the mage bonus even if your feature was incomplete and had an inn or a cathedral...

Tus you have the following order:

> Roads: [ Basic points + Inns] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings
> Cities: [ Basic points + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings


If add you have German cathedrals, you can see it adds points to the points per tile but at the end of the game inns and cathedrals cancel the bonus for incomplete roads with inns.

"When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn [7] that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile, and 2 points instead of 1 for your archbishop. [8] Unfinished roads at the end of the game are still worth 0 points. This applies to the highwayman as well as the archbishop."

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany_(1st_edition)#Inns_and_Cathedrals

Thus the scoring updated scoring sequence is:

> Roads: [ Basic points + German cathedrals + Inns] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings
> Cities: [ Basic points + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings

If we add Cathars / Siege / Besiegers, you have the following rules that affect the basic scoring per tile:

"Cities which contain Besiegers/Cathars/Siege tiles are said to be besieged. Whenever a besieged city is completed during the course of play, each tile and each pennant in that city score only 1 point instead of the usual 2. If the city contains a cathedral, it scores only 2 points for every tile and pennant (instead of 3)."

Therefore the updated scoring sequence is:

> Roads: [ Basic points + German cathedrals + Inns] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings
> Cities: [ Basic points + Cathars/Siege/Besiegers + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings

And if we talk about German castles, you have...

* "These bonus points are added to the feature score after modifications from inns or cathedrals. (10/2015)"

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany_(1st_edition)#cite_note-4

Thus this bonus is added to other bonus points affecting the whole feature, that is, it belongs with the Little Buildings:

> Roads: [ Basic points + German cathedrals + Inns ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings + German castles
> Cities: [ Basic points + Cathars/Siege/Besiegers + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings + German castles

So you can see that when building the scoring sequence the principle followed is:
1. Group together all the modifiers affecting the number of points per tile or coat of arms, applying inns/cathedrals at the end so that, at the end of the game, you get 0 points for the core feature scoring if the feature is incomplete and it has an inn or a cathedral.
2. Apply Mage bonus / Witch penalty
3. Apply on top all bonus points applicable to the feature as a whole

Easy to remember, right?  ;)

PS: This is the reason behind the interleaving of the Land Surveyors in the Scoring page:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence

Edit: Renamed test page to final name
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 03:59:45 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2020, 10:24:30 PM »
Now I understand.
But:
Why you are cointing in street fair also every street part on German Cathedral Tile.
It's not core game.

Online Meepledrone

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Re: Combining The Land Surveyors with other expansions
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2020, 01:22:36 AM »
Now I understand.
But:
Why you are cointing in street fair also every street part on German Cathedral Tile.
It's not core game.

What I'm saying is that Street Fair should be applied to the Basic Points. In this case considering [Basic points] +1 or [Basic points] x2 has the same effect  ;)

OK. Let me explain it back in the context of the combined scoring:

We reached this points:

> Roads: [ Basic points + German cathedrals + Inns ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings + German castles
> Cities: [ Basic points + Cathars/Siege/Besiegers + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + Little Buildings + German castles

And we said in general we would have this:

> Roads: [ Basic points + ...any points modifiers per tile... + Inns ] + Mage / Witch + ...any bonus applied at feature level...
> Cities: [ Basic points + ...any points modifiers per tile/coat of arms... + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + ...any bonus applied at feature level...

So we have:
* "any points modifiers per tile" are commutative (so far) but Inns and Cathedrals have to be applied at the very end to be consistent with its behavior at the end of the game
* "any bonus applied at feature level" are commutative except the Witch penalty, so Mage / Witch is applied first as per the rules

For monastic buildings the picture is simpler:

> Monastic Buildings: [ Basic points ] + Vineyards + Little Buildings

So in general we would have:

> Monastic Buildings: [ Basic points + ...any points modifiers per tile... ] + ...any bonus applied at feature level...

Note: So far we didn't have any ...any points modifiers per tile... for monastic buildings.

Having a look at the Land Surveyor scoring we can see three groups:

[A.] Prolog scoring tiles: They alter how the feature is scored
   - Citizens' Jury: majority modifier for cities
[B.] Tile count and points modifiers: They modify the number of tiles to be considered and number of points per tile or coat of arms
   - Highway: Affects the tile count for roads
   - Bad Neighborhood: Affects the tile count for cities
   - Siege: Affects coats of arms in cities
   - Street Fair / Peasant Uprising : Affects points per road tile
   - Hermit Monastery / Pilgrimage Route: Affects monastic buildings
[C.] Points modifiers per feature: They provide a bonus or penalty at feature level, once the core feature scoring is done
   - Wealth: Bonus points for cities and monasteries
   - Poverty: Penalty points for roads and cities

So if we integrate these modifiers into the scoring sequence commented earlier, we would have the following:

> Roads: [ Basic points + [B.] + ...any points modifiers per tile... + Inns ] + Mage / Witch + [C.] + ...any bonus applied at feature level...
> Cities: [ [A.] + Basic points + [B.] + ...any points modifiers per tile/coat of arms... + Cathedrals ] + Mage / Witch + [C.] + ...any bonus applied at feature level...
> Monastic buildings: [ Basic points + [B.] + ...any points modifiers per tile... ] + [C.] + ...any bonus applied at feature level...

For monastic buildings, we don't have any other points modifiers per tile, so it look even simpler:

> Monastic buildings: [ Basic points + [B.] ] + [C.] + ...any bonus applied at feature level...

And that's the reason why monastic buildings include the Land Surveyor scoring in one block in the new Scoring During the Game page. Roads and cities, however, need to split them in several blocks.

You can revisit the setup here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence

Edit: Renamed test page to final name

Edit 2: Regrouped scoring tiles
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 12:32:23 AM by Meepledrone »


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