Poll

Will the C2 rules for Halflings consider the clarifications provided by Georg Wild in 10/2015?

Yes, HiG will solve all the issues
6 (35.3%)
No, a layout upgrade of the C1 printed rules is good enough
4 (23.5%)
No clue, HiG will surprise us once more
7 (41.2%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)  (Read 3239 times)

Offline cidervampire

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2020, 05:22:15 PM »
Hopefully they’ve sorted the rules out. Even without any other expansions there were just too many questions

Offline supertopix

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2020, 02:53:05 PM »
Yes, they are the official English version by HiG

Some comments on them:

>> 2. Placing a meeple

The sentence in red is mistranslated.

Quote
After having placed a half-sized tile you may now place a Meeple on your tile according to the rules of the base game.

You may also place a Meeple on an adjacent triangular tile if there already is one.

The text should be something similar to this as per the German original text:

Quote
After having placed a half-sized tile you may now place a Meeple on your tile according to the rules of the base game.

You may place a Meeple even if there is already a Meeple on an adjacent half-sized tile.

So you can see how misleading the HiG English text can be at this point.



>> 3. Scoring a feature

The English rules include the following sentence regarding the scoring of completed features:

Quote
If you complete a feature by placing a half-sized tile, it is being scored according to the rules of the base game.

The German rules provide a slightly different meaning as they don't assume you complete the feature with the Halfling tile...

Quote
If you complete a feature with a half-sized tile, it is scored according to the normal rules.

So, again, we have a slight wording change that can drive you nuts trying to understand the intended meaning.



>> Crop circle rules

There is another mistranslation similar to the one present in the ZMG release of Big Box 6:

Quote
Place the triangular crop circle tile according to the rules. Afterwards you determine a kind of Meeple (knight, highwayman or farmer) and choose one of the following actions which all players (including yourself) must complete, starting with the player to your left:
Each player must either…
A) … take a Meeple from their supply and place it next to another one of their Meeples of this kind on the same land tile.
OR
B) … remove one of their Meeples of the determined kind from a land tile and put it back into their supply.
If a player does not have any Meeples of the determined kind, they cannot complete neither action A nor B.

The translation of original German rules would lead to the following translation:

Quote
Place the triangular crop circle tile according to the rules. Afterwards you determine a kind of Meeple (knight, highwayman or farmer) and choose one of the following actions which all players (including yourself) must complete, starting with the player to your left:
Each player either…
A) … may take a Meeple from their supply and place it next to another one of their Meeples of this kind on the same land tile.
OR
B) … must remove one of their Meeples of the determined kind from a land tile and put it back into their supply.
If a player does not have any Meeples of the determined kind, they cannot complete neither action A nor B.

This mistake may reopen the may-must discussion around the crop circles actions one more. The readers of the German rules will continue their lives quietly while the English readers would be scratching their heads as the C1 rules say something contradicted by the C2 rules.



After reviewing the intended meaning of the original German rules my understanding of these rules is the following:

* Half-sized tiles are considered individual tiles:
   - You can place meeples on them no matter they share the same square space with another half-sized tile no matter if the latter has a meeple on it.
   - You score features like roads and cities as per the usual rules even if they include half-sized tiles, that is, half-sized tiles count the same as regular tiles.

* The exception is how monasteries behave:
   - Monasteries are completed when they the eight adjacent square spaces are occupied by regular square tiles or, by 1 or 2 half-sized tiles per space --- This is not a change.
   - Completed monasteries always score 9 points, no matter how many tiles can be crammed into the 3x3 grid centered at the monastery. --- This is a return to the original intent of the rules from 2014 with an updated wording.

So it seems this was the original intent by HiG back in 2014 but somehow down the road it got misinterpreted. The discussion around if two half-sized tiles in the same square would score as 1 square tile for cities and roads was never in the rules. It seems to have popped up from the way monasteries considered tiles in their surroundings when half-sized tiles entered the equation.

Therefore, all the clarifications from 10/2015 seem to continue to be valid except for monasteries that go back to their original definition. The number of tiles around a monastery is irrelevant, just the number of occupied spaces.

This redefinition of how monasteries are scored with half-sized tiles has a domino effect on other interactions, even contradicting clarifications from 10/2015. HiG will not provide clarifications for all these interactions so we'll have to extrapolate from the given rules to cover this cases as best as we can. Affected interactions:
* Scoring of all monastic buildings: abbeys, shrines, German monasteries (with a monk), Dutch & Belgian monasteries (with a monk), Japanese buildings (with a monk) and Darmstadt churches should follow the same rules as monasteries
* Scoring of gardens: should follow similar rules to monasteries
* Scoring of the abbot when removed: should follow similar rules to incomplete monasteries
* Scoring of German monasteries: should be adapted to follow similar rules to monasteries (but scoring always 12 points when complete).
* Scoring of monastic buildings and gardens with adjacent double-sized tiles: should be adapted so they score 9 points when complete no matter if one or more double-sized tiles are occupying multiple adjacent spaces to the feature. This would contradict this clarification from 10/2015 where these monasteries would score according to the number of adjacent tiles:


Example:
- Clarification from 10/2015: (A) scores 8 points, (B) scores 7 points 
- Rules aligned with C2 halfings: (A) scores 9 points, (B) scores 9 points 

Additionally, any feature or action considering adjacency from a tile should consider any tile placed on an adjacent square space:
- One regular square tile
- One Half-sized tile
- Two half-sized tiles sharing the same square space
- One half of a double-sized tile (as a consequence)

In general this affects:
- Areas of 3x3 tiles centered at a feature or figure (watchtower tiles, acrobat tiles, circus tiles, fruit-bearing tree tiles, bathhouses, Darmstadt churches)
- Areas of 2x3 tiles (castle fiefs)
- Areas of 4x3 tiles (area of a adjacency to a German castle)
- Adjacencies related to the placement of gold ingots

Other mechanics such the range of the tower, columns and rows for special monasteries with a meeple placed as an abbot, the trajectory of a flier, the movement of dragon, the movement of the flea tokens, etc. will follow the clarifications provided so far:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings_(1st_edition)#Other_expansions



Please share your thoughts.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 11:06:20 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2020, 04:01:01 PM »
Quote
You can play Halflings alongside expansions as well; however, there will be no official rules for these combinations.
You've got to love how lazy Hans im Glück has become with its mini expansion rules. Despite publishing an expansion with four different expansion elements on some of its tiles, they decide that they'd just explain those four expansion's rules rather than actually address compatibility issues with other expansions. I'm just scratching my head at the ridiculousness of it all.

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2020, 04:01:59 PM »
Regarding to the crop circles:

Each must decide between option a and b.
A) they can place a meeple from their supply to an already placed meeple and nowhere else
Or
B) remove a meeple

So from my point of view the translation make Sense, but I’m not a native speaker and understand sometimes not the nuances

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2020, 04:03:34 PM »
I guess that only the old players knows the c1 and c2 rules

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2020, 04:11:14 PM »
Regarding to the crop circles:

Each must decide between option a and b.
A) they can place a meeple from their supply to an already placed meeple and nowhere else
Or
B) remove a meeple

So from my point of view the translation make Sense, but I’m not a native speaker and understand sometimes not the nuances

It is a tiny change but what HiG did in the English rules was this:

Each must decide between option a and b.
A) they can place a meeple from their supply to an already placed meeple and nowhere else
Or
B) remove a meeple

So the can (or may) par of option A) was removed so they told players: you must add a meeple or remove a meeple. This was in contrast with the German rules: you may add meeple or you must remove a meeple.

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2020, 09:05:41 AM »
Quote
You can play Halflings alongside expansions as well; however, there will be no official rules for these combinations.
You've got to love how lazy Hans im Glück has become with its mini expansion rules. Despite publishing an expansion with four different expansion elements on some of its tiles, they decide that they'd just explain those four expansion's rules rather than actually address compatibility issues with other expansions. I'm just scratching my head at the ridiculousness of it all.

Bravo!! I was thinking the same the other day hahaha
'Connected field segments are called farms'  - The Weed Guru

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2020, 03:50:51 PM »
Dito

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2020, 02:15:00 AM »
I will continue playing with the Halflings just as it was written in WICA until one week ago.
Why would we even bother to discuss these ridiculous rules of a publisher that is not even willing to supply rules for his own published expansion interactions?
On this forum, there are a lot of people who seem to care much more about the game than the publisher himself. There is so much work already prepared on this forum, but it's clear that HiG does not even bother to read it through...

So, Meepledrone, just ignore these "new" rules. If the publisher does not care, why should we?
They will get their money anyway...

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2020, 02:35:11 AM »
Hi Vital Pluymers,

My guts tell me the original rules were misinterpreted by readers so the scoring rules for monasteries were adapted to other features by mistake.

That is the two tiles in a square spaced scored as one tile for cities and roads was a mistake. It wasn't in the original rules but everyone accepted that after the scoring for monasteries

That's why HiG insist on the rules with a different wording.

What do you think?

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2020, 05:16:06 AM »
I already added a first version of the rules for C2 Halflings to WICA... but have to update all the other affected spots all over WICA.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings

I was thinking of keeping track of the evolution of the rules:
* original (from 2014)
* new (from 10/2015)
* new new (from 2020)

Again, I think all the fuss comes from:
* the misinterpretation of the original rules due to the concise wording: the rules for monasteries were applied to roads and cities
* the whimsical clarifications from 2015: the rules intended for roads and cities were applied to monasteries
* the new new rules where:
   - roads and cities are scored according to the usual rules (a tile is a tile) as intended in 2014 and clarified in 2015
   - monasteries are scored as intended in 2014 (forgetting about the clarifications from 2015)

So all the clarifications from 10/2015 are still valid except for monasteries (and German castles). All other monastic buildings, gardens and the abbot meeple will have to follow suit.

I feel the grudge in the air  >:D

PS: What? My 1400th post and still discussing Halflings?  :o
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 05:17:58 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2020, 12:45:35 PM »
@Meepledrone: big work, +1 merit from me

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2020, 03:18:36 PM »
Thanks Murphy013!

I'm still busy with the Halflings page, adding applicable clarifications from C1 Halflings. I still have to update the images I borrowed from the C1 version to make them closed to C2.

I still have to write to HiG about the mistranslations in the English rules in 2. Placing a meeple, 3. Scoring a feature and the Crop Circle actions.

Then I will have to update:
* Halflings for C1--> Update all the rules according to C2
* Castles in Germany for C1/C2--> Update clarification on scoring a monastery surrounded by German castle tiles
* Game Reference --> Update the preparation with 2 Halflings sets.
* Scoring During the Game for C1/C2/WE --> Update scoring for Monastic Buildings/German castles/Gardens/Abbot with Halflings
* Scoring After the Game for C1/C2/WE --> Update scoring for Monastic Buildings/German castles/Gardens with Halflings
* Summary of Rule Sets and Changes --> Add latest changes with Halflings (if applicable - we have some misinterpretations)

A lot of work ahead, I'm afraid.

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2020, 07:52:37 AM »
I moved the posts discussing changes to page Scoring during the Game in WICA to this topic:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4489.msg67309#msg67309


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