Author Topic: Questions re: Bathhouses and Messages  (Read 271 times)

Offline Swiggan

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Questions re: Bathhouses and Messages
« on: March 08, 2020, 09:03:54 AM »
Hey everyone -

I couldn't find where these had been asked before, and that might be because they're obvious and don't really need to be asked  ;D. But, here goes:

1. A meeple that's been sent to a bathhouse would NOT contribute towards the majority in the bathhouse's feature (assuming the feature is incomplete), correct?

2. The Messages that ask you to score a feature using endgame criteria (#s 1-3 for example) would not take into account any feature that was just completed, since any meeple(s) on that feature would have already been removed from the tiles when it was scored? (And besides, you wouldn't normally be scoring completed features in the endgame anyway)

That's it, just two questions  ;)  Thanks all!

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4545.0

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions re: Bathhouses and Messages
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2020, 05:00:43 PM »
Hi Swiggan,

Here you are my answers:

Hey everyone -
1. A meeple that's been sent to a bathhouse would NOT contribute towards the majority in the bathhouse's feature (assuming the feature is incomplete), correct?

A bathhouse is a separate feature from cities and roads, you have a similar case with meeples placed on towers (a meeple on top of a tower placed in the middle of a city tile doesn't contribute towards the majority either). The meeple in the bathhouse is placed sideways just to avoid any confusion. The bathhouses have also their own rules to get meeples back.

You can revisit the rules here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Barber-Surgeons#Visiting_a_bathhouse_after_scoring

2. The Messages that ask you to score a feature using endgame criteria (#s 1-3 for example) would not take into account any feature that was just completed, since any meeple(s) on that feature would have already been removed from the tiles when it was scored? (And besides, you wouldn't normally be scoring completed features in the endgame anyway)

This is a very interesting question because of its nuances.

This would be correct for a game that only scores completed features such as with the base game only. But there are expansions that add additional rounds of scoring at other moments during a player's turn. The simplest case for C2 is playing with The Abbot, where you have two possible rounds of scoring during one turn:
Round 1. After placing a tile, you may decide to score and remove your abbot. This scoring is associated to a round of scoring at the end of phase 2. Placing a meeple that allows you to receive one (or more messages, if chained) if at least your one of scoring figures landed on a dark space when scoring your abbot.
Round 2. The tile you just placed may complete one or more features that you will score in phase 3. Scoring a feature defining a new road of scoring after all the completed features have been scored and any meeples on them removed. Once again, this round of scoring allows you to receive one (or more messages, if chained) if, after scoring all your completed features, at least your one of scoring figures moved during scoring ends on a dark space.

So, in your question, you are assuming Round 2: no meeple in a completed figure can be considered as all of them were already removed. However, Round 1 happens in the middle of your turn, where meeples are still on just completed features.

In any case, the Message 1-3 rules just specify that you choose a meeple on a feature worth the fewest points. The rules do not explicit the feature has to be incomplete or that it could not be just completed on the same turn. The rules assume Round 2 as they are written with the most basic scenario in mind (the base game only). Round 1 is a consequence of the clarifications about rounds of scoring from 5 & 10/2014.

This said, in the absence of an official clarification, I agree with your point of view and would recommend players to stick to the original spirit of the rules and Messages 1-3 resolved on Round 1 any feature just completed as you suggest in your question. This would become a house rule.



Additional Info #1

The following example shows what would happened if completed features with meeples still on them during Round 1 would be eligible for Messages 1-3:
1. You draw and place a new tile and complete a 4-tile road and a monastery.
2. You score your abbot and your scoring meeple lands on a dark space and you receive Message 3. (Round 1)
3. You resolve Message 3 and you receive 9 points for message thanks the monastery just completed with the meeple still on it.
4. You score the completed monastery with your scoring meeple and receive 9 more points. You remove the meeple on the monastery.
5. You score the completed road with your messenger and receive 4 points landing on a dark space. You remove your meeple from the road and receive Message 1. (Round 2)
6. You resolve Message 1 but the closed road cannot be taken into consideration

A a result, the same feature (the monastery in this example) could be scored twice.



Additional info #2

Round 1 and Round 2, mentioned above, are just two out of 6 possible rounds of scoring that may happen during a regular turn. It all depends on the number of expansions included in the game. I name them according to the game phase where they take place.

Note: Round 1 above corresponds to Round 2 below. Round 2 above corresponds to Round 3 below

1. Placing a tile

* Round 1A - Beginning of turn:
   - Fairy point
* Round 1B - After drawing tile, before placing tile:
   - Wheel of Fortune actions
* Round 1C - After drawing and placing tile:
   - Wind rose 3 points

2. Placing a meeple

* Round 2 - End of “move wood” phase:
  - Abbot removal scoring
  - Shepherd after "Guide flock to the stable" action
  - Acrobat pyramid scoring
  - Fruit-bearing tree action

3. Scoring a feature

* Round 3 - Scoring phase:
   - Bonus scoring (pre): Watchtower, Tollhouse
   - Feature scoring: City, Road, Monastery, Castle, etc.
   - Bonus scoring (post): Markets of Leipzig, Fairy 3 points, Ringmaster points, Teacher
   - Circus scoring

4. Additional actions

* Round 4 - End of turn:
   - Catapult points

You can find full details on this here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

Important note: As you can see, Round 1C and Round 2 are the ones where you may find meeples places on just completed features. This are the cases that would need a house rule to allow Messages 1-3 to involve incomplete features only or any feature with a meeple on it (even just completed ones).



That's it, just two questions  ;)  Thanks all!

No problem. Enjoy. :)

Cheers!

Edit: added "important note" about on rounds having meeples on completed features.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 12:43:57 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Swiggan

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Re: Questions re: Bathhouses and Messages
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2020, 07:08:50 PM »


This is a very interesting question because of its nuances.

This would be correct for a game that only scores completed features such as with the base game only. But there are expansions that add additional rounds of scoring at other moments during a player's turn. The simplest case for C2 is playing with The Abbot, where you have two possible rounds of scoring during one turn:
Round 1. After placing a tile, you may decide to score and remove your abbot. This scoring is associated to a round of scoring at the end of phase 2. Placing a meeple that allows you to receive one (or more messages, if chained) if at least your one of scoring figures landed on a dark space when scoring your abbot.
Round 2. The tile you just placed may complete one or more features that you will score in phase 3. Scoring a feature defining a new road of scoring after all the completed features have been scored and any meeples on them removed. Once again, this round of scoring allows you to receive one (or more messages, if chained) if, after scoring all your completed features, at least your one of scoring figures moved during scoring ends on a dark space.

So, in your question, you are assuming Round 2: no meeple in a completed figure can be considered as all of them were already removed. However, Round 1 happens in the middle of your turn, where meeples are still on just completed features.

In any case, the Message 1-3 rules just specify that you choose a meeple on a feature worth the fewest points. The rules do not explicit the feature has to be incomplete or that it could not be just completed on the same turn. The rules assume Round 2 as they are written with the most basic scenario in mind (the base game only). Round 1 is a consequence of the clarifications about rounds of scoring from 5 & 10/2014.

This said, in the absence of an official clarification, I agree with your point of view and would recommend players to stick to the original spirit of the rules and Messages 1-3 resolved on Round 1 any feature just completed as you suggest in your question. This would become a house rule.



Thanks for the input! I actually hadn't considered the scoring events like fruit trees, acrobats etc when I thought of the messages question, but they open up a whole new issue, as you said. I had only considered using messages with I&C, T&B and A&M (and probably the other minis) so I wasn't even thinking about the "other" scoring opportunities. That's part of what makes this so much fun!  ;D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions re: Bathhouses and Messages
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2020, 12:43:08 AM »
My pleasure!  ;D

Just added and "important note" to my previous post to let you know the rounds that could have meeples on just completed features.

Cheers!


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