Author Topic: Questions  (Read 15668 times)

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2020, 04:18:47 PM »
"Yes, you can place a normal meeple as an acrobat and, as a second figure, a phantom as another acrobat on the same turn, according to the rules for phantoms." But Wikicarpedia says "After placing a tile, the player may deploy the phantom to it as a second follower (on a second feature)". On a 'second' feature; the same pyramid is not a second feature.
"Thus, in one turn the player may deploy two followers [5] [6] [7] [8] to two different features of the tile he or she just placed." That means that if you play with The Phantom, you can deploy two normal meeples in the same turn?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2020, 07:06:55 PM »
[155.] "Yes, you can place a normal meeple as an acrobat and, as a second figure, a phantom as another acrobat on the same turn, according to the rules for phantoms." But Wikicarpedia says "After placing a tile, the player may deploy the phantom to it as a second follower (on a second feature)". On a 'second' feature; the same pyramid is not a second feature.

The deployment of the phantom as a second figure to a second feature comes from the default restrictions in the rules in order to occupy features: you cannot place a meeple to an occupied feature. This is one of the cornerstones of Carcassonne. However, this restriction is broken sometimes: you can use a flying machine, a crop circle or the city of Carcassonne to deploy meeples to features already occupied.

In their own right, acrobat pyramids break the standard occupancy rule by definition, since up to three meeples can occupy the same acrobat space in a non-exclusive way by "direct placement" (from the same tile or from an adjacent one). This relaxation of the occupancy rules may deem possible to deploy a phantom as a second figure to the same feature, provided it is an acrobat pyramid.

Check this clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Phantom_(1st_edition)#cite_ref-12

[156.] "Thus, in one turn the player may deploy two followers [5] [6] [7] [8] to two different features of the tile he or she just placed." That means that if you play with The Phantom, you can deploy two normal meeples in the same turn?

When playing with The Phantom you may deploy two meeples:
1. Firstly you may deploy a wooden meeple: normal meeple, large meeple, mayor, wagon, ringmaster or abbot.
2. Lastly you may deploy a phantom.

You can check the Order of Play to revisit all this:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 07:08:52 PM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2020, 05:36:22 PM »
Which is scored first, at the end of the game? The meeples moved from the market district on a field with barn or the big top?
When do you resolve a message? If you receive 1 point for the fairy, you resolve a message between steps 1 and 2 or after step 4? If you receive points in step 2, you resolve a message between steps 2 and 3 or after step 4?
Which is the correct method?
a) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). 2. You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10). You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15). You receive 5 points for a city (messenger on 20). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2).
b) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2). You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 4). You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 6). You receive 5 points for a city (messenger on 20). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 8 ).
c) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2). You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10). You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 4). You receive 5 points for a city (messenger on 20). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 6).
d) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2). 2. You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10). You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15). You receive 5 points for a city (messenger on 20).
Can you place and move a meeple in/from the city of Carcassonne in the same turn?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 03:58:04 PM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2020, 03:32:02 PM »
[157.] Which is scored first, at the end of the game? The meeples moved from the market district on a field with barn or the big top?

At the end of the game, before you start with the final scoring, you will score the big top on its last location. After that, you will proceed with the scoring after the game.

You can see all the actions happening before the final scoring here (section 4. Final scoring), after selecting all the expansions interesting to you:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Reference

[158.] When do you resolve a message? If you receive 1 point for the fairy, you resolve a message between steps 1 and 2 or after step 4? If you receive points in step 2, you resolve a message between steps 2 and 3 or after step 4?

* When you get a message after scoring the 1-point fairy bonus at the start of your turn and you land on a dark space on the scoreboard, you resolve the message before drawing a tile, within phase 1. Placing a tile. See Round 1A below.
* When you score points in phase 2. Placing a meeple and land on a dark space, you resolve the message at the the end of phase 2. Placing a meeple, right before moving the dragon (if applicable) and before starting phase 3. Scoring a feature. See Round 2 below.

In general, there are up to 6 rounds of scoring that would allow you to resolve messages during your turn grouping one or more events happening at that point:

1. Placing a tile

* Round 1A - Beginning of turn (before drawing a tile):
   - Fairy point
* Round 1B - After drawing tile, before placing tile:
   - Wheel of Fortune actions
* Round 1C - After drawing and placing tile:
   - Wind rose 3 points

2. Placing a meeple

* Round 2 - End of “move wood” phase:
   - Abbot removal scoring
   - Shepherd after "Guide flock to the stable" action
   - Acrobat pyramid scoring
   - Fruit-bearing tree action

3. Scoring a feature

* Round 3 - Scoring phase:
   - Bonus scoring (pre): Watchtower, Tollhouse
   - Feature scoring: City, Road, Monastery, Castle, etc.
   - Bonus scoring (post): Markets of Leipzig, Fairy 3 points, Ringmaster points, Teacher
   - Circus scoring

4. Additional actions

* Round 4 - End of turn:
   - Catapult points

You may receive one message at most at the end of each round of scoring if any of your scoring figures moved and ended on a dark space at the end of the given round. Even if your you scoring figures moved and landed on dark spaces, you will only get one message per round of scoring.

You can check here more info about the rounds of scoring:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

[159.] Which is the correct method?

a) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). 2. You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10) and 5 for flock (messenger on 15). You receive 5 points for a castle (messenger on 20). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2).

b) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2). You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 4). You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 6). You receive 5 points for a castle (messenger on 20). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 8 ).

c) 1. Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0. You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2). You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10). You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 4). You receive 5 points for a castle (messenger on 20). You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 6).

The answer is c)

If we apply what we explained in the previous answer, you can see the following chain of events per phase and the corresponding messages received:

Your messenger is on 4. Your meeple is on 0.

| -->
Initial situation
1. Placing a tile
You receive a point for fairy (messenger on 5).
You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 2).

| -->
|
* Round 1A - Beginning of turn (before drawing a tile):
   - Fairy point
2. Placing a meeple
You receive 5 points for a garden (messenger on 10).
You receive 5 points for flock (messenger on 15).
You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 4)

| -->
|
|
* Round 2 - End of “move wood” phase:
   - Abbot removal scoring
   - Shepherd after "Guide flock to the stable" action
2. Scoring a feature
You receive 5 points for a castle (messenger on 20).
You receive a message (+2 points - meeple on 6).
| -->
|
* Round 3 - Scoring phase:
   - Feature scoring: Castle, etc.

You can check here more info about the rounds of scoring:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

[160.] Can you place and move a meeple in/from the city of Carcassonne in the same turn?

During phase 3. Scoring a feature, for each feature to be scored:
1. Players are be allowed in turn to redeploy meeples from the city of Carcassonne to the given feature
2. The feature is scored and the meeples on the feature removed.
Once all the features are scored, if you completed one or more features but did not receive any points, you will be allowed to send a meeple to the city of Carcassonne.

So, on your turn you may of the following actions in this order
1. Place a tile completing a feature
2. Place a meeple on the feature just completed
3. Redeploy meeples from the city of Carcassonne (placed there on a previous turn) to the feature just completed
4. Score the feature
5. Return the meeples from the feature to your supply
6. Send one meeple from your supply to the city of Carcassonne.

You can see that the meeple sent to Carcassonne can be the meeple just placed, one redeployed from Carcassonne or any other from your supply.
 
You can revisit here the rules:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#2._Placing_a_meeple_in_the_City_of_Carcassonne

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2020, 03:58:09 PM »
But what happens if you receive, for example, in the 1A, the message 4? The turn is interrupted by message's 4 turn? Or you resolve the message 4 after steps 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2, 2C, 2D, 3A, 3B, 3C and 4A?
The hill affects the farmers?
The hill affects the shepherds?
Can you place the abbey or a castle of Germany with the message 4?
Do you receive the 3 fairy-bonus points if you remove the abbot?
In a pyramid there are 3 acrobat. You assign the fairy to acrobat A. What happens with the 1 and 3 bonus points (fairy) for acrobat B and C if the acrobat A is removed?
What happens with the 3 fairy-bonus points if you score a feature with the message 8?
What happens with the 3 fairy-bonus points at the end of the game?
Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 07:02:01 AM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline totor66

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Re: Questions
« Reply #110 on: March 25, 2020, 08:04:08 AM »
Basic question but I had a dout playing jcloisterzone:

One a shepard is on a field, there is no possiblity to add a farmer ? It is weird since normally shepard is considered not a follower.

On the other hand, we can add a shepard to a previously occupied farm by a farmer, which seems logical

Or did I missread something ? I was reading wikicarpedia for a while but couldn't find answer
Carcassonne Fan since 2014

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #111 on: March 25, 2020, 01:42:29 PM »
[161.] But what happens if you receive, for example, in the 1A, the message 4? The turn is interrupted by message's 4 turn? Or you resolve the message 4 after steps 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2, 2C, 2D, 3A, 3B, 3C and 4A?

If you are checking the Order of Play (ans its step numbering ;))...

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

...you will be able to resolve messages at the following points in your turn:
* Between steps 1A and 1B <-- Messages (#1A)
* Between steps 1B and 1C <-- Messages (#1B)
* Between steps 1C and 2A <-- Messages (#1C)
* Between steps 2C and 2D <-- Messages (#2)
* Between steps 3C and 4A <-- Messages (#3)
* Between steps 4A and 4B <-- Messages (#4)

Message 4 will grant a complete nested turn to the active player taking place at any of this points. It will happen at the end of a step so you would not perform the message with a scoring or any other action half way. It is the same for all other messages.

Please review the section about rounds of scoring that addresses all this precisely:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

[162.] The hill affects the farmers?

Yes, of course. Hills will serve as a tie break for farmers too.

You can revisit the rules here, where farmers are mentioned explicitly:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep#Final_Scoring_2

[163.] The hill affects the shepherds?

No. Hills do not affect shepherds, since they are not meeples. Shepherds are special figures and they will always share a flock when on the same field.

You can revisit the rules here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep#3._Scoring_a_hill 

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2020, 02:30:45 PM »
Which is the correct order?
a) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for the normal turn. You resolve message's 4 turn.
b) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for message 4. You resolve step 2 for message 4. You resolve step 3 for message 4. You resolve step 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for the normal turn.
c) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for message 4. You resolve step 2 for message 4. You resolve step 3 for message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for the normal turn.
d) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for message 4. You resolve step 2 for message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for message 4 and step 3 for the normal turn together.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #113 on: March 26, 2020, 07:21:13 AM »
[164.] Can you place the abbey or a castle of Germany with the message 4?

There is no rule or clarification covering this case.

The rules of Message 4 are written taking into considerations the base game, so no provision is made for those cases when players may have tiles in their supply such as abbeys, German castles or Halflings. However, performing Message 4 assumes you are executing a normal turn with all its consequences, even double turns granted by builders as you can see here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#cite_note-16

The interpretation of the rules would not prevent players from using a tile in their supply instead of drawing a tile. For bazaars you will always have to draw new tiles to set up an action, though.

Therefore, the turn sequence described in the Order of Play would be valid for a regular/double turn and for extra turns provided by Message 4:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

[165.] Do you receive the 3 fairy-bonus points if you remove the abbot?

No, the abbot won't get the 3-point fairy score bonus when removed.

The scoring of the removed abbot takes place in phase 2. Placing a meeple and the 3-point fairy score bonus takes place in phase 3. Scoring a feature, this means the 3-point fairy score bonus does not apply to the abbot when removed.

You may check the Order of Play to check the sequence of events and the fairy scoring in relation to scoring the abbot when removed and the acrobats when scored.
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
* Scoring during the game: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game

[166.] In a pyramid there are 3 acrobat. You assign the fairy to acrobat A. What happens with the 1 and 3 bonus points (fairy) for acrobat B and C if the acrobat A is removed?

Acrobats B and C will be entitled neither to the 1-point fairy bonus during the game nor to the 3-point fairy score bonus at the end of the game if the acrobats are scored at the end of the game.

If you check the following clarification about the fairy and adding meeples to a feature with a crop circle. Only the meeple assigned to the fairy get the bonus, bearing in mind the acrobats are a special case: assigning the fairy to one acrobat benefits all the acrobats in the pyramid. So if you remove the meeple assigned to the fairy, the association would be broken and the other meeples will not benefit from the fairy bonus anymore.

Quote
Crop Circles: Only one meeple can be "next to" (or connected to) the fairy. Thus, only one meeple will receive points from the fairy. Even if another meeple is placed in the same feature on the same tile (as with the Crop Circles), this would not be considered "next to" the fairy.

You can see this check this clarification here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#Fairy

[167.] What happens with the 3 fairy-bonus points if you score a feature with the message 8?

If you score a meeple that would get the 3-point binary score bonus at the end of the game, you should get it as per the interpretation of the rules.

The rules indicate all the features existing in the base game here, including fields, that is, during the game and after the game. We are interested in the scoring happening after the game in this case:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#3._Scoring_a_feature_5

[168.] What happens with the 3 fairy-bonus points at the end of the game?

At the end of the game, you apply the 3-point fairy score bonus as usual for the meeple assigned to the fairy when the feature it is placed on is scored.

The rules indicate all the features existing in the base game here, including fields, that is, during the game and after the game. We are interested in the scoring happening after the game in this case:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#3._Scoring_a_feature_5

Thanks!

My pleasure!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 11:31:35 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Luijosep

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Re: Questions
« Reply #114 on: March 26, 2020, 09:29:59 AM »
I got a quick question. I noticed that the rules in Wikicarpedia for C2 'The Princess and the Dragon' changed the turn sequence for the Dragon movement to 2B, Why? Physical rules say it happens at Phase 1B.

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2020, 10:20:43 AM »
[171.] I got a quick question. I noticed that the rules in Wikicarpedia for C2 'The Princess and the Dragon' changed the turn sequence for the Dragon movement to 2B, Why? Physical rules say it happens at Phase 1B.

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Hi Luijosep,

Welcome to the forum. Bienvenido al foro... para que veas que aquí hablamos de todo.  ;)

If you check the rules for the dragon tile, first you place the tile (action belonging to phase 1. Placing a tile) and then you may place a meeple (action belonging to phase 2. Placing a meeple). Right after that you move the dragon. So even if HiG misleadingly number the dragon movement as phase 1B, it is actually phase 2b as it happens after finishing phase 2. Placing a meeple and before phase 3. Scoring a feature.

That's why we renamed the dragon movement as phase 2b in the dragon rules (unwinding the rules to make them clearer) and in the Order of Play:
* The dragon tile rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#The_dragon_tiles
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

As you can see HiG is inconsistent in their rules and sometimes mislead players. Hope this helps.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 12:10:00 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #116 on: March 26, 2020, 11:29:39 AM »
[169.] Basic question but I had a dout playing jcloisterzone:

[a)] One a shepard is on a field, there is no possiblity to add a farmer ? It is weird since normally shepard is considered not a follower.

[b)] On the other hand, we can add a shepard to a previously occupied farm by a farmer, which seems logical

[c)] Or did I missread something ? I was reading wikicarpedia for a while but couldn't find answer

Hi totor66,

JCZ v4.4.1 is not fully polished and some actions are not implemented correctly:
a) is an error: You should add a farmer to a field with a shepherd.
b) is correctly implemented
c) You are not missing anything.

This version also has some issues when:
* Placing some of the weird tiles in the expansion (you get an spurious Java exception you cannot shake off and some cities cannot be completer because of it).
* Closing a field with shepherds, they are not scored automatically. So shepherd may be trapped.
* Placing a shepherd in an inner field from other expansions, it is not scored automatically either. So shepherd may be trapped.

Sorry for the bad news. Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #117 on: March 26, 2020, 12:09:30 PM »
[170.] Which is the correct order?
a) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for the normal turn. You resolve message's 4 turn.
b) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for message 4. You resolve step 2 for message 4. You resolve step 3 for message 4. You resolve step 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for the normal turn.
c) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for message 4. You resolve step 2 for message 4. You resolve step 3 for message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for the normal turn.
d) You resolve step 1A. You receive message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for message 4. You resolve step 2 for message 4. You resolve steps 1B and 1C for the normal turn. You resolve step 2 for the normal turn. You resolve step 3 for message 4 and step 3 for the normal turn together.

The turn sequence would be:
- You resolve step 1A for the normal turn. You receive message 4 and perform a full nested turn for the message
   - You resolve step 1A for message 4. (It's a full turn)
   - You resolve step 1B for message 4.
   - You resolve step 1C for message 4.
   - You resolve step 2 for message 4.
   - You resolve step 3 for message 4.
   - You resolve step 4, if applicable, for message 4. (You may even enjoy a double turn)
- You resolve step 1B for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 1C for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 2 for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 3 for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 4, if applicable, for the normal turn.

You can check here more info about the rounds of scoring:
* Rounds of Scoring: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #118 on: March 26, 2020, 12:54:20 PM »
And what happens if you receive the message 4 between step 2 and 3? The step 3 is postponed?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #119 on: March 26, 2020, 01:00:38 PM »
[172.] And what happens if you receive the message 4 between step 2 and 3? The step 3 is postponed?

The turn sequence would be the following:
- You resolve step 1A for the normal turn. You receive message 4 and perform a full nested turn for the message
- You resolve step 1B for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 1C for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 2 for the normal turn.
   - You resolve step 1A for message 4. (It's a full turn)
   - You resolve step 1B for message 4.
   - You resolve step 1C for message 4.
   - You resolve step 2 for message 4.
   - You resolve step 3 for message 4.
   - You resolve step 4, if applicable, for message 4. (You may even enjoy a double turn)
- You resolve step 3 for the normal turn.
- You resolve step 4, if applicable, for the normal turn.

You can check here more info about the rounds of scoring:
* Rounds of Scoring: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring
* Order of Play: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play


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A few odd questions...

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