Author Topic: Questions  (Read 31899 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Questions
« Reply #390 on: December 23, 2020, 12:08:34 AM »
Yes, I know that is not exacly the answer of your question but, I don't understand your doubt. For scoring a watchtower you must to be ON the tile. A bridge ON the watchtower tile= you are ON the tile = you score the watchtower. It' the same like little buildings... You are ON the tile to score the bonus... SAME
I think there's no doubt...

 Scoring bonuses of printed roads is another thing very different... You must to be connected to the road... It's not the case...

Only, the rules do not say you have to be on the tile, it says you have to be "on the feature (city, road) on that tile". That's more specific, so I think the question is legitimate.

Little buildings is part of the "Scoring bonuses and actions affecting a tile" (see below), and so it do also affect a bridge placed on that tile.

But the watchtower do not affect the tile, it affects "the feature (city or road) on that tile". So I'm not sure how to consider it with bridges. Should we consider a bridge as "the feature on that tile" or not?
Note that the rule say the feature on that tile, not a feature on that tile, and that may be significant...

WICA clearly make a differentiation between:
Quote
Scoring modifiers, scoring bonuses and actions affecting a road network will also affect a bridge connected to it:
  • Inns (Exp. 1 - Inns & Cathedrals)
  • Mage (Mini #5 - Mage and Witch)
  • Witch (Mini #5 - Mage and Witch)
  • Solovei Razboynik actions (Russian Promos)
  • German castles (Castles in Germany)
  • German cathedrals (Cathedrals in Germany)
  • Bathhouses (The Barber-Surgeons)
  • Labyrinth bonus (The Labyrinths)
  • Wainwrights quarter bonus (The Markets of Leipzig)

Scoring bonuses and actions affecting a tile will also affect a bridge placed on that tile:
  • Dragon eating figures (Exp. 3 - The Princess and the Dragon)
  • Fairy protection (Exp. 3 - The Princess and the Dragon)
  • Gold pieces (Mini #4 - The Goldmines)
  • Little buildings (Little Buildings)
  • Vodyanoy action (Russian Promos)

Scoring bonuses and actions affecting locally printed roads on a tile by proximity (the feature must be on the road) or connectivity (the feature must be connected to the road) will not affect bridges passing over the tile automatically:
  • Inns (Exp. 1 - Inns & Cathedrals)
  • German castles (Castles in Germany)
  • Features considered by tollhouses (The Tollkeepers)
  • Solovei Razboynik action (Russian Promos)

To me it seems more logical to interpret the watchtowers to be part of the third category, but I may be wrong...
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
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Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #391 on: December 23, 2020, 12:10:24 AM »
A meeple placed on a bridge that is placed on a watchtower tile should receive the watchtower bonus when the road with the bridge will be completed?
You can read on WICA the answer: ‘The Watchtowers: A watchtower scoring for neighboring tiles with road segments will also consider tiles with a bridge’
The anwer is YES

PD: Read WICA ;)


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I think you're misinterpreting WICA.

The question here is:

I have a meeple on a bridge, a watchtower is under that bridge. When the road is scored, will my meeple on the bridge get the watchtower bonus?

The quote from WICA
Quote
The Watchtowers: A watchtower scoring for neighboring tiles with road segments will also consider tiles with a bridge
means:
I have a meeple scoring a watchtower (so the meeple is on a city or road segment on a watchtower tile, not on a bridge), the watchtower gives points for neighboring tiles with road segment, if there's a neighboring tile with a bridge, it is counted as a neighboring tile with a road segment when scoring the watchtower.


But we still do not have the answer to our question. Another clue on WICA would be:
Quote
Scoring bonuses and actions affecting locally printed roads on a tile by proximity (the feature must be on the road) or connectivity (the feature must be connected to the road) will not affect bridges passing over the tile automatically
Watchtowers are not mentioned there, but I think I'd apply this.

Meepledrone, what do you think? If that's correct, then maybe it'd be useful to add watchtowers to the list of bonus considered by this note  ;)
Yes, I know that is not exacly the answer of your question but, I don't understand your doubt. For scoring a watchtower you must to be ON the tile. A bridge ON the watchtower tile= you are ON the tile = you score the watchtower. It' the same like little buildings... You are ON the tile to score the bonus... SAME
I think there's no doubt...

 Scoring bonuses of printed roads is another thing very different... You must to be connected to the road... It's not the case...



Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

The rules for Watchtowers state:
When a completed road or a city contains a tile which features a watchtower, and there is a meeple on the feature (city, road) on that tile, the watchtower is scored first. The completed road or city is scored afterwards. [1] [2]

This does not apply to farmers. Farmers do not trigger scoring for watchtowers.


So, although it feels odd to me since all the other features are physically connected to the Watchtower, I think you are right after all. That connectivity is not required by the rules. And a bridge on a tile can be considered as a road on the tile.
So, I agree with Dr. Meeple, I think the answer is indeed 'yes'.
You can make another question... A bridge on a tile is a road? Yes or not?
Imagine that you draw a bridge over the watchtower. Special tile. The rules will be the same that the tile with 2 roads segments...

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

'Connected field segments are called farms'  - The Weed Guru

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #392 on: December 23, 2020, 12:23:20 AM »
Yes, I know that is not exacly the answer of your question but, I don't understand your doubt. For scoring a watchtower you must to be ON the tile. A bridge ON the watchtower tile= you are ON the tile = you score the watchtower. It' the same like little buildings... You are ON the tile to score the bonus... SAME
I think there's no doubt...

 Scoring bonuses of printed roads is another thing very different... You must to be connected to the road... It's not the case...

Only, the rules do not say you have to be on the tile, it says you have to be "on the feature (city, road) on that tile". That's more specific, so I think the question is legitimate.

Little buildings is part of the "Scoring bonuses and actions affecting a tile" (see below), and so it do also affect a bridge placed on that tile.

But the watchtower do not affect the tile, it affects "the feature (city or road) on that tile". So I'm not sure how to consider it with bridges. Should we consider a bridge as "the feature on that tile" or not?
Note that the rule say the feature on that tile, not a feature on that tile, and that may be significant...

WICA clearly make a differentiation between:
Quote
Scoring modifiers, scoring bonuses and actions affecting a road network will also affect a bridge connected to it:
  • Inns (Exp. 1 - Inns & Cathedrals)
  • Mage (Mini #5 - Mage and Witch)
  • Witch (Mini #5 - Mage and Witch)
  • Solovei Razboynik actions (Russian Promos)
  • German castles (Castles in Germany)
  • German cathedrals (Cathedrals in Germany)
  • Bathhouses (The Barber-Surgeons)
  • Labyrinth bonus (The Labyrinths)
  • Wainwrights quarter bonus (The Markets of Leipzig)

Scoring bonuses and actions affecting a tile will also affect a bridge placed on that tile:
  • Dragon eating figures (Exp. 3 - The Princess and the Dragon)
  • Fairy protection (Exp. 3 - The Princess and the Dragon)
  • Gold pieces (Mini #4 - The Goldmines)
  • Little buildings (Little Buildings)
  • Vodyanoy action (Russian Promos)

Scoring bonuses and actions affecting locally printed roads on a tile by proximity (the feature must be on the road) or connectivity (the feature must be connected to the road) will not affect bridges passing over the tile automatically:
  • Inns (Exp. 1 - Inns & Cathedrals)
  • German castles (Castles in Germany)
  • Features considered by tollhouses (The Tollkeepers)
  • Solovei Razboynik action (Russian Promos)

To me it seems more logical to interpret the watchtowers to be part of the third category, but I may be wrong...
Well I'm not agree at all. ON the tile (City or road). When you put a bridge you 'pass over' the watchtower BUT you are passing it. It's like a new 'next to'. It's different that a printed inn for example...

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital


Offline Decar

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Re: Questions
« Reply #393 on: December 23, 2020, 11:33:05 AM »
Great debate being had here!
Seems like the clearest Watchtower rules were at the start:
"You can combine it with other expansions - but at your own risk."   
;D

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Questions
« Reply #394 on: December 23, 2020, 11:37:14 AM »
Great debate being had here!
Seems like the clearest Watchtower rules were at the start:
"You can combine it with other expansions - but at your own risk."   
;D

That's true ! :))

Anyway, a clarification on WICA'd be helpful (whether it follows one point of view or another, at least we can refer to it).

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #395 on: December 23, 2020, 12:27:27 PM »
Great debate being had here!
Seems like the clearest Watchtower rules were at the start:
"You can combine it with other expansions - but at your own risk."   
;D

That's true ! :))

Anyway, a clarification on WICA'd be helpful (whether it follows one point of view or another, at least we can refer to it).
Of course! HiG only interested on money and fast food minis playing only with basic game hahaha

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital


Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #396 on: December 27, 2020, 11:33:17 AM »
[248.] A meeple placed on a bridge that is placed on a watchtower tile should receive the watchtower bonus when the road with the bridge will be completed?

I've read the arguments in favor and against while being busy some other stuff...  >:D

I also researched any sources I could find about this issue to no avail for a few days. So I finally remembered there was a conversion to C1 by PresetM, including its rules, and revisited it again for clues. The rules and the graphics for the C1 version of the Watchtowers were reviewed and approved by HiG.

You can see the excerpt from the following post on CarcF by PresetM:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=3493&hilit=wachturme&start=150#p48041

German text:
Quote
Im Übrigen gibt es neue Informationen zu dieser umgesetzten Erweiterung. HiG hatte die Graphiken mit den Wachtürmen an Doris Matthäus zur Bewertung weitergegeben. Sie fand diese sehr OK und da HiG auch das Regelwerk als in Ordnung befunden hat, wird es hier demnächst einen abschließenden Download-Link geben.
Wie wir sehen können, nimmt HiG die Umsetzungsproblematik sehr ernst.

English translation:
Quote
By the way, there is new information about this converted expansion. HiG had given the graphics with the watchtowers to Doris Matthäus for evaluation. She found them very OK and since HiG also found the rulebook to be OK, there will be a final download link here soon.
As we can see, HiG takes the implementation issue very seriously.

The final files (individual tiles, tile sheet and rules) are available for download on CarcF here:

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=310&t=3800

You can see the following comparison of one of the tiles in both versions:



The C1 version shows a city segment detached from the watchtower. This means that meeples placed on features on the tile can trigger the scoring of a watchtower not touching the feature. This would apply to any city or road segment on the same tile on a watchtower tile, and by extension, a bridge on placed on the tile, if any.

The watchtowers in C2 are very big since they feature the applicable type of scoring, so they touch city segments in the official tiles. The principle above applied to roads would mean that a meeple placed on the road segment on the following custom tiles would trigger the scoring of the watchtower if the road is completed (a road going around the watchtower or a road segment with an underground section).



Getting back to a practical example with a bridge: Blue would score as follows:
* Blue would score 3 points for the meeple on top of the bridge on the watchtower tile (1 neighboring monastery x 3 points)
* Blue would score 3 points for the road (3 tiles x  1 point / tile)

Any comments?
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Questions
« Reply #397 on: December 27, 2020, 11:43:45 AM »
Hi,

Thanks Meepledrone for your research and explanation.

This seems convincing, so a watchtower is affecting any meeple on a whole tile except farmers.

It'd be nice to add a note about this in Watchtower's WICA page, as well as on Bridge, castle and bazar's WICA page (just add Watchtower to the already existing list of bonuses affecting a whole tile).

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #398 on: December 27, 2020, 11:48:51 AM »
I totally agree. It makes sense.


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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #399 on: December 27, 2020, 12:03:45 PM »
The fan-version rules also indicate that monks, the same as farmers, cannot trigger the scoring of a watchtower. In general terms, this would affect all monastic buildings.

At a certain point during the development of the conversion there was a discussion about it. So PresetM wanted to rule out the any monastery on an adjacent tile as a possible trigger.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 12:05:22 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #400 on: December 27, 2020, 01:21:05 PM »
Hi,

Thanks Meepledrone for your research and explanation.

This seems convincing, so a watchtower is affecting any meeple on a whole tile except farmers.

It'd be nice to add a note about this in Watchtower's WICA page, as well as on Bridge, castle and bazar's WICA page (just add Watchtower to the already existing list of bonuses affecting a whole tile).

Your welcome!

Updates done to the following pages:
* Watchtowers page: clarifications on bridges, and also about other features on adjacent tiles
* Exp. 8 - BC&B: clarification on watchtowers affecting the whole tile

Have fun!

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #401 on: December 27, 2020, 01:42:37 PM »
Hi,

Thanks Meepledrone for your research and explanation.

This seems convincing, so a watchtower is affecting any meeple on a whole tile except farmers.

It'd be nice to add a note about this in Watchtower's WICA page, as well as on Bridge, castle and bazar's WICA page (just add Watchtower to the already existing list of bonuses affecting a whole tile).

Your welcome!

Updates done to the following pages:
* Watchtowers page: clarifications on bridges, and also about other features on adjacent tiles
* Exp. 8 - BC&B: clarification on watchtowers affecting the whole tile

Have fun!
You are the Flash meeple hahaha

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital


Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Questions
« Reply #402 on: December 27, 2020, 10:37:46 PM »
The fan-version rules also indicate that monks, the same as farmers, cannot trigger the scoring of a watchtower. In general terms, this would affect all monastic buildings.

At a certain point during the development of the conversion there was a discussion about it. So PresetM wanted to rule out the any monastery on an adjacent tile as a possible trigger.

Ok, so it's affecting any meeple on a city or road on the whole tile. It makes sense.

I totally agree. It makes sense.

It does  ;)
But a solid clarification about why a whatchtower should be considered as "affecting the whole tile" or as "affecting connected features" is welcome instead of both our assumptions.  ;)

Updates done to the following pages:
* Watchtowers page: clarifications on bridges, and also about other features on adjacent tiles
* Exp. 8 - BC&B: clarification on watchtowers affecting the whole tile

Have fun!

Thanks for your awesome work!

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #403 on: December 28, 2020, 12:14:42 AM »
Well, he adds C1 version to explain what I'm saying before...
But If C1 conversion doesn't exist I think that you still wouldn't change your opinion...
That's not halfling science...

Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Questions
« Reply #404 on: December 28, 2020, 01:45:01 AM »
Hmm. I remember previous discussion that meeple on watchtower means only on feature witch are detached watchtower. And meeple gets watchtower bonus only if feature on which is staying is finished.
Example was meeple on road detached to watchtower and question was if meeple get watchtower bonus if city is finished.
Answer was NO, because meeple not staying on finished feature. There were also comparison with original German rules.
Now meeple on bridge which is not detached to watchtower is getting watchtower bonus? It has no sense.
If I remember garden under bridge is not counted to Toll keepers because of bridge. 
Anyway meeple on bridge is not on watchtower. He can't get any bonus.

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