Author Topic: Questions  (Read 21595 times)

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2020, 02:48:22 AM »
60. Here says that you do not receive a message if you receive 3 points for a tower (You may buy back any one of your imprisoned meeples by paying the captor 3 points. ROBBERS),  3 points for fairy (If a fairy is next to a meeple in the completed feature, that meeple’s owner receives 3 points. (If the fairy is next to an acrobat when the pyramid is scored, each acrobat in the pyramid gets these bonus points.) ROBBER CHOICE), for watchtower (Perform watchtower scoring for completed roads or cities for you and any other players with meeples on a watchtower (no majority applied.) ROBBER CHOICE), for toolhouses (Perform tollhouse scoring for completed roads for you and any other players ROBBER CHOICE), for bonus points (Tally points and award points to the controlling player(s) ROBBER CHOICE
Base score
Inns
Cathedrals
Abbey
Barn
Shrines
Vineyards
Mage
Witch
Gardens
German castles
German monasteries (with monk)
Dutch & Belgian monasteries (with monk)
Japanese buildings (with monk)
Labyrinths
Markets of Leipzig bonus
Bathhouses), for ringmaster (Each player scores his or her ringmaster, if placed on a completed feature (no majority is considered.) ROBBER CHOICE) and for bazaar (Perform an auction. ROBBERS). It is a mistake?

(59): I wanted to know if you can remove the red meeple from the image with the eighth message.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 02:52:52 AM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Questions
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2020, 03:00:48 AM »
Regarding 59:

No, you can’t remove a meeple from a closed tower with message 8. you Must score a Meeple to return it to your supply with message 8. a meeple on a closed tower can’t score points.

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2020, 04:22:24 AM »
61. Which is the correct order?
a) 1. You move the fairy. 2. You score the acrobat pyramid.
b) 1. You score the acrobat pyramid. 2. You move the fairy.

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Questions
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2020, 04:49:40 AM »
Regarding 61:

Option a: scoring is always the last step in a turn

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2020, 06:11:26 AM »
62. "Shrine tiles cannot be placed adjacent to more than one monastery, and monasteries cannot be placed adjacent to more than one shrine", even if the monastery or shrine is/are unoccupied or the monastery or shrine is/are occupied by you?
63. What happens in a challenge, if the shrine and the monastery are occupied by you?
64. Can you score 2 or more pyramids in the same turn?

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Questions
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2020, 04:48:53 PM »
It’s good to have questions but... why cannot you use WICA????  ???
'Connected field segments are called farms'  - The Weed Guru

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2020, 12:35:34 AM »
It’s good to have questions but... why cannot you use WICA????  ???

Come one! Don't be like that. Some questions are great!... And some of them come from reading WICA too... So don't be so grumpy, this is a great proofreading exercise that helps improve it.

I'm having a great time.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 08:34:21 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2020, 02:33:13 AM »
60., 62., 63., 64.?

Offline Murphy013

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Re: Questions
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2020, 02:45:59 AM »
64: what do you mean with pyramid? If you mean a shrine then is there no difference to any other finished feature. It will be scored.
63: you get the points of the feature that wins the challenge
62: it doesn’t matter who occupied the shrine

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2020, 12:05:02 PM »
Pyramid (ext. 10 "Under the Big To").

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2020, 12:13:37 PM »
(59): I wanted to know if you can remove the red meeple from the image with the eighth message.

Regarding 59:

No, you can’t remove a meeple from a closed tower with message 8. you Must score a Meeple to return it to your supply with message 8. a meeple on a closed tower can’t score points.

That is right! The tower is an independent feature that cannot be scored, so Message 8 does not affect it.

For more information, check this clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tower#cite_note-3

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2020, 03:32:55 PM »
60. Here says that you do not receive a message if you receive 3 points for a tower (You may buy back any one of your imprisoned meeples by paying the captor 3 points. ROBBERS),  3 points for fairy (If a fairy is next to a meeple in the completed feature, that meeple’s owner receives 3 points. (If the fairy is next to an acrobat when the pyramid is scored, each acrobat in the pyramid gets these bonus points.) ROBBER CHOICE), for watchtower (Perform watchtower scoring for completed roads or cities for you and any other players with meeples on a watchtower (no majority applied.) ROBBER CHOICE), for toolhouses (Perform tollhouse scoring for completed roads for you and any other players ROBBER CHOICE), for bonus points (Tally points and award points to the controlling player(s) ROBBER CHOICE
Base score
Inns
Cathedrals
Abbey
Barn
Shrines
Vineyards
Mage
Witch
Gardens
German castles
German monasteries (with monk)
Dutch & Belgian monasteries (with monk)
Japanese buildings (with monk)
Labyrinths
Markets of Leipzig bonus
Bathhouses), for ringmaster (Each player scores his or her ringmaster, if placed on a completed feature (no majority is considered.) ROBBER CHOICE) and for bazaar (Perform an auction. ROBBERS). It is a mistake?

Short answer:The Order of Play shows Step 3B: Resolve Completed Features happens several times to score each completed feature. You can see ROBBERS or ROBBER CHOICE actions but no MESSAGES action. This is correct. What you didn't notice is that you score everything first and, when you are done (you have a MESSAGES action after the looped section), you check if at least one of your scoring figures (meeple or messenger) has ended on a dark space of the scoreboard. If so, you will get a Message.

The general view was okay, but devil is in the details and when replying your answer I came across several issues I wanted to address before answering your question.



Long answer:
This is going to be a long answer... You kept me busy for a few days revisiting everything at hand: the rules on WICA, the CAR, the original rules in German and English, and the exiting clarifications... And you will ask why.

Why this reply took so long...

Well, since I wanted to find a "source" for my answer, I revisited the clarifications about Messages from 5/2014 and 10/2014. And I found this sentence part of the question sent to HiG that they replied without denying any of part of it:

Quote
The rules for the Messages refer to “scoring rounds,” as all features scored in one “scoring round” are counted together, and only at the end of a “scoring round” is it determined if a follower is on a dark space.

(Original post here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1113.msg13390#msg13390)

Oh my! This was not reflected in the CAR explicitly and hence it wasn't in WICA either! The Order of Play the CAR was complying 95% with it (Maybe by chance?) But the addition of new C2 features adding new scoring events helped to break the level of compliance: the Abbot, the Fruit Bearing Trees, the Acrobats, the Ringmasters, The Big Top,...

(I'm not considering the mistranslation by HiG that removed from the C2 rules the reference to rounds of scoring and blurred the solution provided by HiG, since I transported all this from the C1 rules in the CAR no matter what.)

So, what did I do? Well, with this new piece of information I applied the following updates to WICA:
1. Review and consolidation of the C2 Mini #2 - Messages rules: completed and updated section "Rounds of Scoring" and removed the consolidated footnotes.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages

2. Review of the C1 Mini #2 - Messages rules: updated section "Rounds of Scoring" to keep up with the C2 expansions and updated the footnotes as required (following the CAR approach)

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages_(1st_edition)

3. Updated the Order of Play in the Reference sections accordingly.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play



The implications of the change

The definition of the rounds of scoring stays the same (I keep the numbering to allow you to cross-reference with WICA:
* 1A: Beginning of turn - 1 or more (for acrobats) scoring events (Fairy)
* 1B: After drawing tile, before placing tile - multiple chained scoring events (Wheel of Fortune)
* 1C: After drawing and placing tile - 1 possible scoring event (Wind Roses)
* 2: End of "move wood" phase - multiple scoring events from various features [ (Remove Abbot / Acrobat Pyramid ) + (Flock action) + (Fruit-Bearing Tree) ]
* 3: End of Scoring phase - multiple scoring events from various features [ (Features and/or bonuses) x N + (Big Top) + (Gingerbread Man) ]
* 4: End of turn - 1 possible scoring event (Catapult)

Rounds 1A, 1B, 1C and 4 haven't changed: One expansion generates scoring events and the Message is received right after all of them are scored.

Round 2 and 3 have been affected by the addition of the C2 expansions (it also was missing some flock actions with possible Messages in the CAR). These rounds of scoring have some additional C2 events that require to move the MESSAGES action to the very end of the associated phases.

Example: You place a tile next to a garden with your abbot meeple. The tile also expands a field with your shepherd. So you decide to:
1. Remove and score your abbot.
2. Guide your flock to the stable.
So you have two scoring events in this case. As per the rules (and the clarification above), you will have to score each of them separately and once done, you will check if you receive a Message.



And the answer is...

This deferred handling of the MESSAGES action in round of scoring (#3) is correct. But to comply with the clarification above it would be required to do it at the very end of the phase so additional actions such as the Big Top and the Gingerbread Man where also scored before checking for a Message.

Hope this helps!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2020, 03:38:44 PM »
61. Which is the correct order?
a) 1. You move the fairy. 2. You score the acrobat pyramid.
b) 1. You score the acrobat pyramid. 2. You move the fairy.

Regarding 61:

Option a: scoring is always the last step in a turn

Sorry to dissent. Neither option is valid.

Moving the fairy and scoring an acrobat pyramid cannot happen on the same turn:

* The fairy can be moved if no meeple is placed. See here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#2._Placing_a_meeple_5

* An acrobat pyramid can be evaluated if no meeple is placed. See here:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#3._Scoring_a_feature_2

You may check the Order of Play too (after selecting expansions 3 and 10 at least):

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2020, 03:54:43 PM »
62. "Shrine tiles cannot be placed adjacent to more than one monastery, and monasteries cannot be placed adjacent to more than one shrine", even if the monastery or shrine is/are unoccupied or the monastery or shrine is/are occupied by you?

62: it doesn’t matter who occupied the shrine

This placement is not allowed in order to avoid problematic situations involving features participating in multiple challenges at the same time.

The following house rule addresses this case, suggesting something similar to your idea:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#House_rules_2

Offline cicerunner

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Re: Questions
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2020, 10:53:29 PM »
It’s good to have questions but... why cannot you use WICA????  ???

Come on! Don't be like that. Some questions are great!... And some of them come from reading WICA too... So don't be so grumpy, this is a great proofreading exercise that helps improve it.

I'm having a great time.  ;D
It made me laugh when I got to this point in the thread!  ;D (I've just read it all. Quite a lot of it in skim mode, I'll admit.) It made me laugh not least because I thought something similar to DrMeeple when I was part way through the thread.

Meepledrone is right of course, there is so much joy to be had in proofreading! I'm serious, that's how I came up with all my recent suggestions for edits!

One question though for Carcassonne93, what's the context for your questions? How come you have so many all at once? Have you just inherited/bought a huge Carcassonne collection and you're starting from scratch? Or are these all the questions you've ever had over the years and you've only found CarcassonneCentral.com / WikiCarpedia? Maybe you could tell us your story by making a post over in Meet The Members?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 11:00:22 PM by cicerunner »


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