Author Topic: Questions  (Read 13011 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 05:41:44 AM »
45. Crop Circles, the portal (Princess and the Dragon), The Flyng Machines: Can you place a meeple on a tile where there is placed the dragon?

No, meeples cannot share the same tile with the dragon.

Check this clarification here (it was included in the C1 rules but not in the C2 :o):
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#cite_ref-4

(42): Same rules for a castle from Germany?

Yes, if you are referring to double-sized tiles counted as one tile during the scoring of special monasteries with a meeple placed as an abbot. 

46. When does the dragon's turn start? Here (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#1._Placing_a_tile) says something, here ( http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play) something else.

Ahhhh... the dragon.  ;)

The C2 P&D page and the Order of Play for C2 match but the latter includes the movement as the last action in phase 1. Placing a Tile instead of showing it as a separate action as per the C2 rules.

When does the dragon move? You have different versions:

A. C2 (current one - according to HiG & ZMG): The dragon moves between phases 1. Placing a Tile and 2. Placing a Meeple, that is, right after all the actions associated to placing a tile take place and before placing any other meeple or figure.
B. C1 (according to HiG & ZMG): The dragon moves between phases 2. Placing a Meeple and 3. Scoring a Feature, that is, right after all the actions associated to placing a meeple take place and before scoring any figures.
C. C1 (according to RGG - a mistranslation of the HiG rules): The dragon moves right after 3. Scoring a Feature but before any additional actions such as crop circles, the bazaar or escaping from city under siege.

Just in case you are interested in the whole story:
* The original HiG rules in German used option B for C1.
* The original English publisher for C1, RGG, mistranslated the rules as indicated in option C. This mistake was quite evident when you compared the written text with the Order of Play summary in the Big Box 3 rules. The former used option C but the latter used option B. They also messed up with the rules regarding placement of the fairy, since the fairy was assigned to the whole tile and not to a particular meeple. 
* When ZMG became the English publisher for C1, they realigned the rules with HiG and option B became official in English. This is the reason why the C1 rules for P&D have so many annotations in the CAR or in WICA as they required many clarifications to reconcilliate all the contradicting, mutating rulings...
* Later HiG released C2 using option A (the current one). ZMG, the English publisher for C2, adopted the same option A.

Options B and C see the dragon movement as the last option of phases 2 and 3. and so it was reflected in the original Order of Play in the CAR. When I created the Order of Play for WICA from the version in the CAR, I updated it to incorporate all the new stuff released since the CAR v7.4 (released in May 2015). I corrected some mistakes, included new stuff, adopted a C2 look, made it dynamic but kept the dragon actions aligned with the C1 arrangement, that is, no separate phase for them.

ZMG added its share of mistranslation to the Big Box 6 rules (specially with the Minis), so more discrepancies to come. If interested, check the summary here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

Maybe now it is time to move them (the 3 versions) to a separate box to make them stand out. I'm pondering if using the yellow colours I used for all the other additional actions (crop circles, bazaar,...) instead of the the brownish colours used in the P&D rules... The color is not that eye-catching.

Any thoughts?

(34): The robber receive 2 or 9 nine points?

If the robber is next to the scoring meeple of the player scoring the road and the fairy points, the robber would get 9 points for the road. The 2 points from the fairy bonus would be scored later once the robber is removed.

If the robber is next to the player scoring the castle (different from the one scoring the road), the robber would get the 9 points scored for the castle.

The normal order of scoring would be:
1. Score bonus points evaluated before the feature  -- Ignored by the castle
    - Watchowers (if the player has a meeple placed on the Watchtower tile of any road or city scored)
    - Tollhouses  (if the player's tollhouse is on a crossroads connected to road(s) being scored)
2. Score the feature including any modifiers and bonus points associated to the feature --- Scored by the castle
    - Inns (for roads)
    - Cathedrals (for cities)
    - Mage and Witch (for road and cities)
    - Little Buildings (for roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
    - Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    - Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    - German Castles (for road and cities)
    - Darmstadtium (for cities)
    - Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
3. Score bonus points evaluated after the feature -- Ignored by the castle
    - 3-point fairy scoring bonus (for roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
    - Teacher bonus (if the player has the Teacher)
    - Ringmaster points (for roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
    - Darmstadt churches (if the player has the majority in the vicinity of the church)
    - Markets of Leipzig (bonus for roads, cities or monastic buildings, provided by the meeple in Leipzig)

If present, a robber may steal any of these points.

If multiple features are scored with the placement of one single tile, the player receiving the points decided the order they will be awarded, as indicated here (this is important so robbers get the least points  ;)):
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers#cite_note-7

Hope this helps  ;D

EDIT: The answer to question 46 was updated below.
EDIT 2: Added Tollhouses as bonus before the feature..
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 05:09:25 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2020, 09:46:43 AM »
And more and more questions...  ;D

47. Can you place meeples on a city where there is already a mayor?

No, a mayor, as any other meeple, has to comply with the usual rules for meeple placement with the additional restriction mayors can only be deployed to cities and Exp. 8 castles.

Check the following clarification:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#cite_note-8

48. Can you move the mayor from the City of Carcassonne in a city that contains other meeples?

Yes, the City of Carcassonne allows you to deploy any meeple to one of the following features if it is a valid destination for the meeple: road, city, monastic building (generalizing already?) or field.

Check the clarifications here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor_and_Wagon

49. Can you place the builder on a road or city where there is only the big meeple, wagon, mayor, ringmaster or phantom ("Note that you must already have one normal meeple on the feature in order to place a builder there")?

Yes, of course. ZMG specified "normal meeple" instead of simply "meeple" as the original ones by HiG. This is another case of mistranslation (did I say anything about this earlier? ;)). When reading expansion rules, you usually gloss over these details as they normally assume to be playing with base game only. In this case, my mind automatically translates these misleading details to their generic version necessary to play with other expansions.  ;D 

Added a clarification about this here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Traders_and_Builders#cite_note-2

50. The barber-surgeons: Only one bathhouse is free. A road that contains only a blue meeple and a city that contains only a red meeple are finished in the same turn. What happens?

The active player (the one who just placed the tile) decides the order the features are scored and therefore whose meeple goes to the bathhouse.

Check the last bullet in section "After scoring a feature" here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Barber-Surgeons#Visiting_a_bathhouse_after_scoring

51. The barber-surgeons: Only one bathhouse is free. A road that contains only a blue wagon is finished. What happens?

The blue wagon scores the road and goes to the bathhouse. You won't have any option to move your wagon. Is that what you wanted to know?

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2020, 09:49:52 AM »
Is that what you wanted to know?

Yes, that I wanted to know.
Thank you for all answers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2020, 09:56:14 AM »
It's fun...

They are always interesting and they help check whether (and how) WICA covers all your questions.  ;D

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Re: Questions
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2020, 02:54:46 PM »
52. What happens if the fairy is placed on a tile where there are a blue meeple and a red meeple?

The fairy has to be assigned to a meeple when placed on a tile. The fairy will provide:
* Extra points to that meeple (1-point bonus at the beginning of its owner's turn during the game, 3-point bonus when scoring the feature the meeple is on)
* Protection against the dragon (it will benefit all the meeples on the tile as a side effect).

Even if the fairy can be assigned to one meeple only, there is a special case: when the fairy is assigned to an acrobat in a pyramid (Exp 10 - Under the Big Top). In this case, all the meeples in the acrobat pyramid will benefit from the fairy bonus points.

For more information, check these pages:
* Placement of the fairy: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#2._Placing_a_meeple_4
* Special case involving acrobats in a pyramid: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Acrobat_tiles_and_acrobats 

53. What happens if the fairy is placed on a tile where there are a 2 red meeple?

Same answer as for question #52. The fairy may be assigned to only one of those meeples, bearing in mind the special case if both are acrobats in a pyramid.

54. What happens if the fairy is placed on a double-tile?

Same answer as for question #52 (the size of the tile does not affect the fairy).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:54:58 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2020, 03:38:59 PM »
46. When does the dragon's turn start? Here (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#1._Placing_a_tile) says something, here ( http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play) something else.

Ahhhh... the dragon.  ;)

The C2 P&D page and the Order of Play for C2 match but the latter includes the movement as the last action in phase 1. Placing a Tile instead of showing it as a separate action as per the C2 rules.

When does the dragon move? You have different versions:

A. C2 (current one - according to HiG & ZMG): The dragon moves between phases 1. Placing a Tile and 2. Placing a Meeple, that is, right after all the actions associated to placing a tile take place and before placing any other meeple or figure.
B. C1 (according to HiG & ZMG): The dragon moves between phases 2. Placing a Meeple and 3. Scoring a Feature, that is, right after all the actions associated to placing a meeple take place and before scoring any figures.
C. C1 (according to RGG - a mistranslation of the HiG rules): The dragon moves right after 3. Scoring a Feature but before any additional actions such as crop circles, the bazaar or escaping from city under siege.

Just in case you are interested in the whole story:
* The original HiG rules in German used option B for C1.
* The original English publisher for C1, RGG, mistranslated the rules as indicated in option C. This mistake was quite evident when you compared the written text with the Order of Play summary in the Big Box 3 rules. The former used option C but the latter used option B. They also messed up with the rules regarding placement of the fairy, since the fairy was assigned to the whole tile and not to a particular meeple. 
* When ZMG became the English publisher for C1, they realigned the rules with HiG and option B became official in English. This is the reason why the C1 rules for P&D have so many annotations in the CAR or in WICA as they required many clarifications to reconcilliate all the contradicting, mutating rulings...
* Later HiG released C2 using option A (the current one). ZMG, the English publisher for C2, adopted the same option A.

Options B and C see the dragon movement as the last option of phases 2 and 3. and so it was reflected in the original Order of Play in the CAR. When I created the Order of Play for WICA from the version in the CAR, I updated it to incorporate all the new stuff released since the CAR v7.4 (released in May 2015). I corrected some mistakes, included new stuff, adopted a C2 look, made it dynamic but kept the dragon actions aligned with the C1 arrangement, that is, no separate phase for them.

ZMG added its share of mistranslation to the Big Box 6 rules (specially with the Minis), so more discrepancies to come. If interested, check the summary here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

Maybe now it is time to move them (the 3 versions) to a separate box to make them stand out. I'm pondering if using the yellow colours I used for all the other additional actions (crop circles, bazaar,...) instead of the the brownish colours used in the P&D rules... The color is not that eye-catching.

Any thoughts?


Well, I have an update here...

This morning I was discussing the turn sequence involving the dragon with Black Bear and I learnt to my surprise that the interpretation I was following of the C2 P&D rules was mistaken. You can see here the details:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4055.msg66490#msg66490

So getting back to your question I have to change a few things:


When does the dragon move? You have different versions:

A. C2 (misinterpretation): The dragon moves between phases 1. Placing a Tile and 2. Placing a Meeple, that is, right after all the actions associated to placing a tile take place and before placing any other meeple or figure.

B. C1 & C2 (official one - by HiG & ZMG): The dragon moves between phases 2. Placing a Meeple and 3. Scoring a Feature, that is, right after all the actions associated to placing a meeple take place and before scoring any figures.
C. C1 (by RGG - a mistranslation of the HiG rules): The dragon moves right after 3. Scoring a Feature but before any additional actions such as crop circles, the bazaar or escaping from city under siege.

Just in case you are interested in the whole story:
* The original HiG rules in German used option B for C1.
* The original English publisher for C1, RGG, mistranslated the rules as indicated in option C. This mistake was quite evident when you compared the written text with the Order of Play summary in the Big Box 3 rules. The former used option C but the latter used option B. They also messed up with the rules regarding placement of the fairy, since the fairy was assigned to the whole tile and not to a particular meeple. 
* When ZMG became the English publisher for C1, they realigned the rules with HiG and option B became official in English. This is the reason why the C1 rules for P&D have so many annotations in the CAR or in WICA as they required many clarifications to reconcilliate all the contradicting, mutating rulings...
* Later HiG released C2 using option B (the official one again). ZMG, the English publisher for C2, adopted the same option B but at a certain point it was misinterpreted as indicated in version A by some people and stuck around some time for a while. :o

You can see orher people struggling with version A too here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Carcassonne/comments/d352ka/fairy_movement_dragon_tile/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

I will update WICA accordingly.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 10:54:45 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2020, 02:46:43 AM »
57. Is that a monastery?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2020, 03:22:20 AM »
57. Is that a monastery?

Yes. You have this one and also another in P&D, for example:



EDIT: Just in case you want additional proof, this A&M tile shows the same monastery you asked about:
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 05:59:34 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2020, 03:56:59 AM »
55. The fairy is placed on a tile or on a feature?
56. If you fly, and you can place the flyer on a tile, are you forced to place the flyer on that tile or you can decide to do not place a meeple in that turn?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 07:51:51 AM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2020, 12:23:22 PM »
55. The fairy is placed on a tile or on a feature?

The fairy is assigned to a meeple, placed on a feature on a tile or placed on a castle (across two tiles). The fairy can be also assigned to a meeple on top of a tower.

As I commented in answer 52, I repeat the comments there:

When assigned to a meeple, the fairy will provide:
* Extra points to that meeple (1-point bonus at the beginning of its owner's turn during the game, 3-point bonus when scoring the feature the meeple is on)
* Protection against the dragon (it will benefit all the meeples on the tile as a side effect).

Even if the fairy can be assigned to one meeple only, there is a special case: when the fairy is assigned to an acrobat in a pyramid (Exp 10 - Under the Big Top). In this case, all the meeples in the acrobat pyramid will benefit from the fairy bonus points.

For more information, check these pages:
* Placement of the fairy: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#2._Placing_a_meeple_4
* Special case involving acrobats in a pyramid: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top#Acrobat_tiles_and_acrobats

56. If you fly, and you can place the flyer on a tile, are you forced to place the flyer on that tile or you can decide to do not place a meeple in that turn?

The rules assume you make a decision either to place a meeple as usual or to use the flying machine. There is no provision to place your meeple as usual if you decide to use the flying machine and you don't like the outcome: your meeple may end up on an unwanted feature or even back in your supply. The latter possibility is commented in the rules and no option is given to fall back to normal placement in this case.

You can check the placement rules the flier here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Flier#2._Placing_a_meeple

EDIT: Added comment about the fairy and a meeple on top of a tower.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 01:29:15 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2020, 02:01:25 PM »
57. "You may not place a meeple on a Volcano tile." But on a Volcano tile where is not placed the dragon? Can you place a meeple on that tile (Princess and the Dragon#The portal, The flier etc.)?
58. "If A was chosen, you may only place the meeple in a feature where at least one of your indicated meeples is already present (farmer to farmer, highwayman to highwayman, knight to knight)."

"You (red) place a tile with the Shield crop circle and place one of your meeples on it as a knight. You choose action A. Each player may place a knight next to one of their knights. [7]
The green player adds another knight.
The blue player has no knights in play, and does nothing.
You place another knight next to the one you placed earlier in the turn. You could not have chosen the city on the upper-left side of the tile, because you did not already have a knight there. (You could also have deployed the knight next to your knight in the upper left corner. [8])"

Can you place the red meeple on the "A" tile?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 02:18:03 PM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2020, 02:18:47 PM »
(58).

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2020, 03:35:30 PM »
57. "You may not place a meeple on a Volcano tile." But on a Volcano tile where is not placed the dragon? Can you place a meeple on that tile (Princess and the Dragon#The portal, The flier etc.)?

Yes, you can deploy a meeple on the volcano tile with a magic portal or flying machine once the dragon moves away from it.

When placing the tile, no meeple is allowed on it as the dragon is placed on the tile and would eat it right away. Once the dragon leaves the tile, it behaves as a normal tile and you can deploy meeple to it by other means.

You can revisit the rules here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#The_dragon:_volcano_and_dragon_symbols_.5B3.5D

58. "If A was chosen, you may only place the meeple in a feature where at least one of your indicated meeples is already present (farmer to farmer, highwayman to highwayman, knight to knight)."

"You (red) place a tile with the Shield crop circle and place one of your meeples on it as a knight. You choose action A. Each player may place a knight next to one of their knights. [7]
The green player adds another knight.
The blue player has no knights in play, and does nothing.
You place another knight next to the one you placed earlier in the turn. You could not have chosen the city on the upper-left side of the tile, because you did not already have a knight there. (You could also have deployed the knight next to your knight in the upper left corner. [8])"

Can you place the red meeple on the "A" tile?



No, you cannot do it. A crop circle allows you to deploy a meeple right next to another of your meeples, that is, on the feature and same tile.

The rules by HiG are quite clear about this but ZMG messed up a bit the translation and, instead of indicating the meeple was deployed next to another on the feature, they just said to deploy on the same feature, relaxing the constraints. Nevertheless, the original examples where maintained showing the outcome of the original rules.

Check the updated rules and the footnotes on the mistakes in translation here:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Crop_Circles#4._Crop_Circle_Action

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Questions
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2020, 05:50:32 PM »
59. The Mesages: Message 8: Can you return a meeple placed on a tower?
Thanks!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2020, 11:49:39 PM »
59. The Mesages: Message 8: Can you return a meeple placed on a tower?
Thanks!

Those are two different actions that can be performed in that order if the right conditions take place:
1. Message 8 is dispatched in any scoring round taking place in 1. Placing a Tile, and, as a result you remove a given meeple.
2. You place the same meeple on a tower in 2. Placing a Meeple.

If you check what scoring rounds may take place in each round here, you'll see that these action sequence may happen with a dispatch triggered by the fairy, the Wheel of Fortune or a wind rose tile:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

EDIT: Sorry. Misread your question while replying on the move. My new answer below.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 03:24:05 PM by Meepledrone »


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