Author Topic: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here  (Read 10228 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2020, 02:49:33 AM »

3) Watchtowers with meeple symbol vs Big Top. Both mechanics give points for the number of meeples on the tile itself and the eight spaces around. What is the logic of including meeples on castles for the scoring of the Big Top, but excluding them for the scoring of the Watchtower? I think for the sake of consistency, it should be scored the same.

Ha ha ha! You finally noticed. When updating some weeks ago the rules about the interaction of castles and the big top, I realized this would be the same case for watchtowers. But of course, the Watchtowers rules do not cover anything but the base game. A shame!

I agree with you, but was keeping that debate for a little later. Now it is on the table.

I sent some question to Cundco about Exp. 10 on December 11th, before I realized about this, and I'm still waiting for an answer. I have prepared a longer list since and even I was thinking of opening a thread with open question so HiG ends up hating us deeply. We can start just collecting all the footnotes in WICA with padlock icons to start with. >:D


That seems like a great idea :-)
But it will be useless, I'm afraid. I am sure that HiG hates us already for years...
 :@

Man of little faith!  >:D

4) The last step of the feature scoring for roads is: Markets of Leipzig: Player sending their only meeple on the road to Leipzig -> (x0) points
If the multiplication times 0 is part of the feature scoring, it would imply that robbers, the teacher or the neighbouring castle(s) would also receive 0 points in case the player having the majority would decide to send his only meeple to Leipzig. I don't think this would be correct.

I agree that we have a problem with castles.

Let's see each case separately when you complete a road and decide to send your only meeple on it to Leipzig:
* Robbers: Since you score 0 points, a robber next to any of your scoring figures would steal nothing and would stay where it is.
* Teacher: Since you score 0 points, the teacher won't get any points either. As per the rules: "When the next feature is scored, the player with the teacher scores the same number of points."
* Castles: You score 0 points but a castle nearby could score the full points for this road, since castles score the points the feature is worth, not the points scored by the players with the majority, if any (the feature could be unoccupied and even so the castle would score for it).

I assume, I will have to figure out how to express this in a simple way since we have to dissociate:
* The points tallied by the feature, that is, the points the feature is worth
* The points scored by the player(s) with the majority (if any), that is, the points scored on the scoreboard

A mayor in a city with no coats of arms or in a castle shows this. The mayor gets 0 points but a nearby castle could score the full points for the feature.

So this means that on the table we will have to indicate:
* Points tallied for the feature --> These would go to a castle nearby too
* Points scored for the feature (if there are any special cases: mayors, meeple sent to Leipzig) --> These would go to the scoreboard, a robber, the teacher

Any comments?


I agree with everything you wrote above. There is no issue with the Robbers and the Teacher.
But for Castles, we need that split-up you proposed.

I will work on it.

5) In the C2 rules for Robbers is written: If playing with other expansions, please take the following notes into consideration: The Messengers: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile.
i) Is this a seperate scoring event? In that case, the Messengers should be added after the Robber scoring topic.
ii) Or is it just part of the scoring round in which the robber is stealing the points? Then nothing should be changed in the scoring file as Messengers are added after every scoring round.
I think whatever is the outcome, this remark with regards to Robbers should be added to the playing rules of the Messenger expansion.

The points stolen by a robber are circumscribed to the round of scoring the scoring is happening. So we are talking about option ii). That's why the message is the last action every round of scoring. You check the final location of your scoring figures if any of them moved during that round of scoring.

However, a message can generate new points and a robber can steal points from the outcome and a new message can be triggered as well, so you may enter an loop here where new rounds of scoring are generated on the fly.

Regarding additional clarifications to WICA, you have this separation of concerns:
* Mini #2 - Messages describes rounds of scoring and actions not triggering one.
   - Section on rounds of scoring: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

* Mini #6 - Robbers indicate that styling points may trigger a message if combined with Mini #2 - Messages 
   - Clarification after the red box: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers#Final_scoring

What would you like to add? Add to the section on rounds of scoring that any scoring moving forward on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received) may trigger a message?


Indeed, I would add this to the section on rounds of scoring in the rules for the Messages and in the WICA.

Anyhow, if the Robbers are always "awarded" for their work taking into account all the scoring activities in one scoring round, ánd messages are delivered just after the end of a scoring round, then what is the added value of the sentence "[/b]: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile.[/b] ?

Done! I added the following paragraph:

"In order to trigger a Message, the landing on a dark space will take into consideration any scoring moving forward a scoring figure on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received). No backwards movements of scoring figures landing on a dark space (due to payments) will be considered."

You can see the result here for C2 (I added a footnote in C1):
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring
Questions about rules? Check WICA: www.wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2020, 07:11:58 AM »
Following the discussion I posted two messages earlier (Reply #59), I prepared the following example:





No matter the "scoring order" defined for the monastery, the city and the road (the latter with different outcomes for the Watchtower scoring per neighboring meeples), the points for all the features closed with this single tile placement will have to be noted on the scoreboard at once, so robbers can properly pick which scoring meeple to steal from.

As you can see, the tallying order will be as follows:
1. Tally the  :pink-meeple: monastery, the  :red-meeple: city (including the watchtower for :red-meeple:) and the :orange-meeple: road (including the watchtower for :orange-meeple: and the tollhouse for :black1-meeple:) in the selected order.
2. The :blue-meeple: castle will be tallied next as its scoring is triggered by the :orange-meeple: road and the :pink-meeple: monastery.
3. The :yellow-meeple: castle will be tallied last as its scoring is triggered by the :blue-meeple: castle, the :red-meeple: city and the :pink-meeple: monastery.

The scoring should take place as follows:
* Step 1A - scoring: note tallied points for :pink-meeple: monastery, :red-meeple: watchtower, :orange-meeple: watchtower, :black1-meeple: tollhouse, :blue-meeple: castle and :yellow-meeple: castle.
* Step 1B - robbers: :blue-meeple: robber and :yellow-meeple: robber steal points from chosen scorings and than they are removed from the scoreboard.
* Step 2: note tallied points for :red-meeple: city and  :orange-meeple: road.

The same logic has to be applied no matter, the scoreboard initial configuration. Here you are another example.



EDIT: Just a reminder - :blue-meeple: robber cannot steal from :blue-meeple: meeple and :yellow-meeple: robber cannot steal from :yellow-meeple: meeple.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 01:09:52 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2020, 02:05:42 PM »
Added some slight updates to the Scoring During the Game Test:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence

Step 2B-1:

* Abbots:
  - Added abbot scoring when removing an abbot placed as an abbot on a special monastery

Step 3B:

* Roads:
   - Split German cathedrals separating points per road segment from bonus to roads (preliminary change to simplify the inclusion of The Land Surveyors)
   - Updated Markets of Leipzig so separate tallied points from scored points

EDIT: Updated link to final page.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 02:37:33 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2020, 11:09:47 PM »
Added some slight updates to the Scoring During the Game Test:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

Step 2B-1:

* Abbots:
  - Added abbot scoring when removing an abbot placed as an abbot on a special monastery


Hmm. Interesting how to get a lot of points. I didn't know that is possible. I thought that it's possible only with standard or big meeple.

I knew that this change will be useful!

+1000 merit to me ;-)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2020, 12:44:57 AM »
This is the result of a number of circumstances not covered in the rules (of course) but that may happen:
* You can place any meeple as an abbot on a special monastery
* An abbot meeple is a meeple  :o
* An abbot meeple can be removed and scored
Ergo, you should be able to remove an abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a special monastery.

Lovely, isn't it?

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2020, 01:13:30 AM »
This is the result of a number of circumstances not covered in the rules (of course) but that may happen:
* You can place any meeple as an abbot on a special monastery
* An abbot meeple is a meeple  :o
* An abbot meeple can be removed and scored
Ergo, you should be able to remove an abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a special monastery.

Lovely, isn't it?
It is very succulent but also controversial. After meditating it, I think that what you are commenting on is the best option, but I understand that it may have another interpretation when it comes to punctuating the abbot according to what circumstances.


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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2020, 01:59:37 AM »
This is the result of a number of circumstances not covered in the rules (of course) but that may happen:
* You can place any meeple as an abbot on a special monastery
* An abbot meeple is a meeple  :o
* An abbot meeple can be removed and scored
Ergo, you should be able to remove an abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a special monastery.

Lovely, isn't it?

Yeah, this is beauty of HiG - "however this has not yet been tested and you’d have to try it at your own risk, without any official rules".

But you're right. Abbot can be places only to Monastery and to Garden. "Special" monastery is regular monastery when you place meeple by standard way. When you lie it on side, then is "abbot". Other logical conlusions you wrote before in you comment. ;-)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2020, 04:42:09 PM »
Hi all!

First version of the new Scoring Duting the Game page integrating The Land Surveyors.

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Carcassonne_Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence

Your feedback most welcome.

Cheers!

Edit: Renamed test page to final name
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 04:00:36 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2020, 05:36:54 AM »
Nice.
But is it necessary to devide scoring tiles to two sections for The Land Surveyors?:

1. Land surveyor action for road/city tiles
2. Land surveyor action for roads/cities

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2020, 05:47:27 AM »
I wish we could have only one section like for Monasteries, but some scoring tiles apply to individual tiles and some other to the feature as a whole. So you need to split them into groups depending on the moment they should be applied when combined with other expansions.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:38:06 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2020, 10:44:27 AM »
I moved the posts about the interpretation and the combination of some Land Surveyor tiles to this other thread:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4641.0

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2020, 01:56:30 PM »
I wish we could have only one section like for Monasteries, but some scoring tiles apply to individual tiles and some other to the feature as a whole. So you need to split them into groups depending on the moment they should be applied when combined with other expansions.
Ok. By the nature of that scoring cards and in which step is used for scoring, your division is better for scoring.

Offline cicerunner

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2020, 03:18:03 AM »
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Farmers

(typo) existing text - "The yellow farmer has not impact since he occupies another field."
suggested edit - change "not" to "no"

Offline Sinscerly

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2020, 12:12:55 PM »
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Farmers

(typo) existing text - "The yellow farmer has not impact since he occupies another field."
suggested edit - change "not" to "no"
I see that Carcassonne93 has already tackled this typo. Thanks for pointing  O0
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In for a new league?: 2020 New league?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2020, 12:24:42 PM »
 :(y)

Thanks to ZMG we have plenty of work ahead  >:D


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