Huston we have a problem.It's called The Land Surveyours ;-)
Hi!Before reading the previous post, I was preparing a new update for the new Scoring During the Game test:http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_TestI have included the following:* Conditional visibility of empty steps in a phase if no scoring actions have to be shown.* Changed step headers from grey to the phase color to reduce the number of grey bars.* Updated the wording in the headers of steps 2A, 2B-1 and 2B-2.* Added restrictions related to negative points in actions subtracting pointsThank you for all your suggestions and comments on the forum and on Slack.Cheers!
Quote from: Meepledrone on April 25, 2020, 06:10:33 AMHi!Before reading the previous post, I was preparing a new update for the new Scoring During the Game test:http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_TestI have included the following:* Conditional visibility of empty steps in a phase if no scoring actions have to be shown.* Changed step headers from grey to the phase color to reduce the number of grey bars.* Updated the wording in the headers of steps 2A, 2B-1 and 2B-2.* Added restrictions related to negative points in actions subtracting pointsThank you for all your suggestions and comments on the forum and on Slack.Cheers! Such an impressive document! Amazing work! :-)
I have a few remarks we should discuss:1) As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.
2) i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.
3) Watchtowers with meeple symbol vs Big Top. Both mechanics give points for the number of meeples on the tile itself and the eight spaces around. What is the logic of including meeples on castles for the scoring of the Big Top, but excluding them for the scoring of the Watchtower? I think for the sake of consistency, it should be scored the same.
4) The last step of the feature scoring for roads is: Markets of Leipzig: Player sending their only meeple on the road to Leipzig -> (x0) pointsIf the multiplication times 0 is part of the feature scoring, it would imply that robbers, the teacher or the neighbouring castle(s) would also receive 0 points in case the player having the majority would decide to send his only meeple to Leipzig. I don't think this would be correct.
5) In the C2 rules for Robbers is written: If playing with other expansions, please take the following notes into consideration: The Messengers: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile. i) Is this a seperate scoring event? In that case, the Messengers should be added after the Robber scoring topic.ii) Or is it just part of the scoring round in which the robber is stealing the points? Then nothing should be changed in the scoring file as Messengers are added after every scoring round.I think whatever is the outcome, this remark with regards to Robbers should be added to the playing rules of the Messenger expansion.
Curious for your thoughts :-)
I joined X-Men so I had to choose new name so I used the name which I use on czech CarcassonneForum.cz.So Idea looks nice.Anyway, how about that Castle? Why not to put it like Teacher?
Quote from: Meepledrone on April 24, 2020, 05:30:57 PMQuote from: stano.lacko on April 24, 2020, 03:19:17 AMQuote from: Meepledrone on April 21, 2020, 02:02:28 PMI tried a version of your suggestion. Please check it out.Perfect. Now is abosultely clear what means Dispatch of message. And it also doesn't enlarge height of page, becaouse message tile is bigger tnat current text.I'm glad, the approach to your suggestion was satisfactory for you. Oooooh! Some questions next... Great! Quote from: stano.lacko on April 24, 2020, 03:19:17 AMNow my suggestion:I don't understand "Feature scoring -> Castle token image Teacher image" when I click to Castle or Techer link is to file.- maybe it will be better to describe as dispatch message after fairy bonus, or others where allowed to dispatch message.Each image in MediaWiki is clickable by default and usually takes you to the page describing the image file. Don't let this mislead you.The images on the "Feature scoring" banner only emphasize that those are the points scored for the feature itself and that...- A robber may steal after scoring the core points corresponding to that feature (each bonus is scored and stolen individually as well)- A castle may score if triggered by this feature.- A player may score as teacher bonus if this is feature scored first after getting the teacher. All this effort is only to indicate that bonus points corresponding to figures (or tokens) triggered by the feature, and won't be visible to a castle or to the teacher.Let me know if this clarifies the whole thing or you have any suggestion about it.Quote from: stano.lacko on April 24, 2020, 03:19:17 AMI thing castle have to be more described. When you finish city, there is no informations about multiplying scoring points by neighbour castle.Castles do not multiply the points by themselves. It all depends on who the castle and who own the feature triggering the castle scoring:* If the owner are the same, you will see it as a scoring multiplier* If the owner is different, you will see someone taking advance of your effort to close the feature.So the scoring of a castle does not include any of these appreciations as they are more related to the strategy during a game than to the scoring itself: you can use castles to boost your scoring or to steal points from others. Please let me know your thoughts.Ok. I thing that it can be described like bonus scoring (prolog) for Watchtowers or bonus scoring (epilog) for Fairy, Ringmaster etc.Maybe it's not bonus scoring but Triggering scoring like in cityFour sections:1. Prolog (watchtowers)2. Feature scoring - all City, Cathar, Mage, Witch, Little Buildings, German Castles, Bathhouse, Darmstadium (it's enought)3. Triggering scoring - new section- Castle - here can be described like if castle is yours, double points- Teacher (described in epilog)- Robber4. EpilogThan that symbols on beginning not be necessary and will be understable rules for scoring. And not be forgotten ;-)New suggection:Why not to add symbol of robber to points table column for example:Fairy bonus - 3 points for feature -> Triggering Robber
Quote from: stano.lacko on April 24, 2020, 03:19:17 AMQuote from: Meepledrone on April 21, 2020, 02:02:28 PMI tried a version of your suggestion. Please check it out.Perfect. Now is abosultely clear what means Dispatch of message. And it also doesn't enlarge height of page, becaouse message tile is bigger tnat current text.I'm glad, the approach to your suggestion was satisfactory for you. Oooooh! Some questions next... Great! Quote from: stano.lacko on April 24, 2020, 03:19:17 AMNow my suggestion:I don't understand "Feature scoring -> Castle token image Teacher image" when I click to Castle or Techer link is to file.- maybe it will be better to describe as dispatch message after fairy bonus, or others where allowed to dispatch message.Each image in MediaWiki is clickable by default and usually takes you to the page describing the image file. Don't let this mislead you.The images on the "Feature scoring" banner only emphasize that those are the points scored for the feature itself and that...- A robber may steal after scoring the core points corresponding to that feature (each bonus is scored and stolen individually as well)- A castle may score if triggered by this feature.- A player may score as teacher bonus if this is feature scored first after getting the teacher. All this effort is only to indicate that bonus points corresponding to figures (or tokens) triggered by the feature, and won't be visible to a castle or to the teacher.Let me know if this clarifies the whole thing or you have any suggestion about it.Quote from: stano.lacko on April 24, 2020, 03:19:17 AMI thing castle have to be more described. When you finish city, there is no informations about multiplying scoring points by neighbour castle.Castles do not multiply the points by themselves. It all depends on who the castle and who own the feature triggering the castle scoring:* If the owner are the same, you will see it as a scoring multiplier* If the owner is different, you will see someone taking advance of your effort to close the feature.So the scoring of a castle does not include any of these appreciations as they are more related to the strategy during a game than to the scoring itself: you can use castles to boost your scoring or to steal points from others. Please let me know your thoughts.
Quote from: Meepledrone on April 21, 2020, 02:02:28 PMI tried a version of your suggestion. Please check it out.Perfect. Now is abosultely clear what means Dispatch of message. And it also doesn't enlarge height of page, becaouse message tile is bigger tnat current text.
I tried a version of your suggestion. Please check it out.
Now my suggestion:I don't understand "Feature scoring -> Castle token image Teacher image" when I click to Castle or Techer link is to file.- maybe it will be better to describe as dispatch message after fairy bonus, or others where allowed to dispatch message.
I thing castle have to be more described. When you finish city, there is no informations about multiplying scoring points by neighbour castle.
_____http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor(formatting) existing text:"corner of each tile is a field: you may place a barn here"(formatting) existing text:"corners of both bottom tiles have city segments: you may not place a barn"suggested edit - in both cases the word "you" is in bold - remove it and apply it to "may" and "may not" instead, OR if consistency requires it, extend the bold formatting to include these words
By the way, nobody has suggested anything about including the abbot scoring when it is placed as an abbot and removed from a special monastery...
What do you think?
Quote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AMI have a few remarks we should discuss:1) As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.I pondered all this, and my take was the following:* Watchtowers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple meeples on the watchtower tile, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.* Markets of Leipzig: I used Robber because, even if there are multiple meeples in Leipzig, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.* Shepherd: I used Robber+ because the scoring of various shepherds in the same field is triggered together. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.* Darmstadt church bonus: I used Robber+ because several meeples may share the majority and get the bonus. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.I agree with you that the case of the shepherd and the Darmstadt bonus is a case on the edge.Do you agree?
Quote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AM2) i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.My take was the following following the lead of the previous block:* Ringmasters: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple ringmasters on the same feature, each meeple will score the bonus individually and the scoring may differ, as you say, depending on their location. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.* Tollkeepers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple tollhouses at the ends of a road, each tollhouse will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.In general, as you can see, bonus points scored individually are tagged with Robber, and those involving several figures in the same scoring are tagged with Robber+.
Quote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AM3) Watchtowers with meeple symbol vs Big Top. Both mechanics give points for the number of meeples on the tile itself and the eight spaces around. What is the logic of including meeples on castles for the scoring of the Big Top, but excluding them for the scoring of the Watchtower? I think for the sake of consistency, it should be scored the same.Ha ha ha! You finally noticed. When updating some weeks ago the rules about the interaction of castles and the big top, I realized this would be the same case for watchtowers. But of course, the Watchtowers rules do not cover anything but the base game. A shame!I agree with you, but was keeping that debate for a little later. Now it is on the table.I sent some question to Cundco about Exp. 10 on December 11th, before I realized about this, and I'm still waiting for an answer. I have prepared a longer list since and even I was thinking of opening a thread with open question so HiG ends up hating us deeply. We can start just collecting all the footnotes in WICA with padlock icons to start with.
Quote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AM4) The last step of the feature scoring for roads is: Markets of Leipzig: Player sending their only meeple on the road to Leipzig -> (x0) pointsIf the multiplication times 0 is part of the feature scoring, it would imply that robbers, the teacher or the neighbouring castle(s) would also receive 0 points in case the player having the majority would decide to send his only meeple to Leipzig. I don't think this would be correct.I agree that we have a problem with castles.Let's see each case separately when you complete a road and decide to send your only meeple on it to Leipzig:* Robbers: Since you score 0 points, a robber next to any of your scoring figures would steal nothing and would stay where it is.* Teacher: Since you score 0 points, the teacher won't get any points either. As per the rules: "When the next feature is scored, the player with the teacher scores the same number of points."* Castles: You score 0 points but a castle nearby could score the full points for this road, since castles score the points the feature is worth, not the points scored by the players with the majority, if any (the feature could be unoccupied and even so the castle would score for it).I assume, I will have to figure out how to express this in a simple way since we have to dissociate:* The points tallied by the feature, that is, the points the feature is worth* The points scored by the player(s) with the majority (if any), that is, the points scored on the scoreboardA mayor in a city with no coats of arms or in a castle shows this. The mayor gets 0 points but a nearby castle could score the full points for the feature.So this means that on the table we will have to indicate:* Points tallied for the feature --> These would go to a castle nearby too* Points scored for the feature (if there are any special cases: mayors, meeple sent to Leipzig) --> These would go to the scoreboard, a robber, the teacher Any comments?
Quote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AM5) In the C2 rules for Robbers is written: If playing with other expansions, please take the following notes into consideration: The Messengers: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile. i) Is this a seperate scoring event? In that case, the Messengers should be added after the Robber scoring topic.ii) Or is it just part of the scoring round in which the robber is stealing the points? Then nothing should be changed in the scoring file as Messengers are added after every scoring round.I think whatever is the outcome, this remark with regards to Robbers should be added to the playing rules of the Messenger expansion.The points stolen by a robber are circumscribed to the round of scoring the scoring is happening. So we are talking about option ii). That's why the message is the last action every round of scoring. You check the final location of your scoring figures if any of them moved during that round of scoring. However, a message can generate new points and a robber can steal points from the outcome and a new message can be triggered as well, so you may enter an loop here where new rounds of scoring are generated on the fly.Regarding additional clarifications to WICA, you have this separation of concerns:* Mini #2 - Messages describes rounds of scoring and actions not triggering one. - Section on rounds of scoring: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring* Mini #6 - Robbers indicate that styling points may trigger a message if combined with Mini #2 - Messages - Clarification after the red box: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers#Final_scoringWhat would you like to add? Add to the section on rounds of scoring that any scoring moving forward on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received) may trigger a message?
Quote from: Meepledrone on April 29, 2020, 04:47:21 PMWhat do you think?I don't know :-)
I think that the definitions here are quite important. We have two different scoring timings:* Six different scoring rounds (Messages): Step 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 3 and 4.* An enormous number of scoring events (Robbers).In Scoring Round Step 3 "Scoring a feature" there are defined different scoring events which have consequences for Robbers:Bonus scoring (prolog), Feature Scoring and Bonus Scoring (epilog).
The rules for Robbers state that you can choose which counting figure to steal from when multiple features are completed and scored in the same scoring round, for instance a simultanously closed road and city.On the other hand, the rules also state that we should score every feature completely (prolog bonuses, feature scoring, epilog bonuses) step by step before scoring the next feature.
Just to be sure that I interpret this correctly:Example: A player completes simultanously feature A (majority ), feature B ( ) and feature C (majority on Watchtower). My Robber is next to the scoring meeples of all three lucky ones.The active player decides in which order the features are scored. According to the Robber rules, he now has to inform me in which order he will score all features, so that I can decide which scoring figure I want to rob.
(i) The active player decides to score respectively feature A, feature B, watchtower feature C, and finally feature C. What are my options as a robber? Can I rob feature A ( ) OR feature B ( ) OR the watchtower of feature C ( )? Is this correct?
(ii) The active player decides to score respectively feature A, watchtower feature C, feature C and finally feature B.Can I still choose between the three options above?I would guess yes, since all scoring meeples would move for the first time in scoring round 3.
Quote from: Meepledrone on April 29, 2020, 04:47:21 PMQuote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AMI have a few remarks we should discuss:1) As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.I pondered all this, and my take was the following:* Watchtowers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple meeples on the watchtower tile, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.* Markets of Leipzig: I used Robber because, even if there are multiple meeples in Leipzig, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.* Shepherd: I used Robber+ because the scoring of various shepherds in the same field is triggered together. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.* Darmstadt church bonus: I used Robber+ because several meeples may share the majority and get the bonus. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.I agree with you that the case of the shepherd and the Darmstadt bonus is a case on the edge.Do you agree?Quote from: Meepledrone on April 29, 2020, 04:47:21 PMQuote from: Vital Pluymers on April 29, 2020, 10:20:04 AM2) i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.My take was the following following the lead of the previous block:* Ringmasters: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple ringmasters on the same feature, each meeple will score the bonus individually and the scoring may differ, as you say, depending on their location. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.* Tollkeepers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple tollhouses at the ends of a road, each tollhouse will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.In general, as you can see, bonus points scored individually are tagged with Robber, and those involving several figures in the same scoring are tagged with Robber+. I can understand your point, but still... Who decides in which order the bonuses are scored? Also the active player?I don't think this is officially defined in the rules, is it?
For the first four scoring events, it seems less important as the end result will be the same anyhow. But for the Ringmasters and Tollkeepers points, it is important. (i) Is the active player deciding about the order of scoring the Ringmasters or Tollkeepers?(ii) Or can the Robber just decide which of the Ringmasters / Tollkeepers he will rob as they are all scored in the same scoring event? This would be in line with his right to choose for features scored simultanously.I would go for option (ii) and then I still believe that there should be a Robber+ symbol :-)Analogously, the same would be valid for Watchtowers and Markets of Leipzig.
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