Author Topic: Scoring quiz with roads  (Read 6851 times)

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2019, 02:12:07 AM »
Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
Avoid the indefinition of the rules have unexpected consequences when interacting with other expansions.

Now I know the reason you choose this rule clarification.

I have played more than 100 fan-made expansions ,my family rule is good with them.
It is very hard work to know what is core feature score?what is bonus?
Even if you can distinguish them, I can not remember it because too much expansions.

So I insist on my family rule until you have clear standard how to distinguish core feature score and bonus.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 04:35:57 AM by yezhenhan »

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2019, 04:21:39 PM »
Hi benbever,

I know its difficult to answer the second question from new player.

I read  reply 36 by you:
For Mage it feels odd, it gives +1 per tile in the scored feature, and there are literally only 4 tiles. The Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities that give extra points. Why would it give +1 for an extra road segment that gives extra points??
For the Little Building it feels odd to count it twice. But if the tile is counted twice for Mage and Markets of Leipzig, then why not for Little Buildings?

Let me explain to you.
1,Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities,Mage also doesn't give +1 for wells in roads.So it is not odd.The rule designer write the tile +1 means not including shield and well,he didn't know the new special mechanics like Cathedrals in Germany.
2,GC  change count  tile  to count road on GC tile,the little building is not changed.Just like you have one big room,you change it two small rooms.But the dog in the room is only one.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:31:34 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2019, 04:35:34 PM »
Hi Vital Pluymers,

You said
The scoring of the Mage is very clear, one point per tile.

Let me explain to you .
CAR7.4 page17
Just like the basis rule write the owner of the farm only scores points at
the end of the game. As such, farmers remain on the farm for the duration of the
game and are never returned to their owner.
Footnote 24:Okay, “never” is a long time. In reality, some special mechanics in some expansions (Festival tiles, the Dragon, etc.) do allow return of farmers to their owners.
Note the key word special mechanics.Cathedrals in Germany has special mechanics.

Both the basis rule and Mage rule are clear,both can be changed by special mechanics.
GC exception is turn count tile to count road only on GC tile.when you play with inn,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile.So 2 points each tile -----2 points each road on GC tile.
when you play with Mage and leipzig,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile,so +1 point each tile -----+1 point each road on GC tile,it is same special mechanic.


You said:
German Cathedral exception only applies to the core scoring of the road, without or with an inn.

You only tell me the conclusion ,not the reason.
If you play some fan-made expansions such as The Lake and CHARIOT RACING. You will find it is hard to know what is belong to core  score.would you tell me what is core  score?

If you only play the offical expansion,it is ok, because only inn involved,so you just remember GC exception only apply with inn,not others.
But if you play all expansion,you need much new rule to apply many expansions and it is hard to remember for  player.You need remember GC exception apply a,b,c,d,e,........not apply f,g,h,i,j,k.



« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:24:18 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline benbever

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2019, 06:50:24 AM »
Hi Yezhenhan

He will continue to ask you more questions:inn is also count tile,what different between inn and mage?
Please answer the second question by your second sentence.
Inn is road (tile) now worth 2 points (3 with Inn and Cathedral), Mage is +1 extra point per tile in scored feature.

Every expansion has its key special rule. The key special rule apply all other expansions.
Not all expansions have special rules, and some have more than one.

Key special rule with Inn is finish+1, unfinished 0.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Inns make a road tile worth 2 points. Or 0 points at the end of the game. finish+1 is not in the rules.

Cathedrals  is add tile number for score,no other expansion has the special rule.so the key specal rule apply all other expansions.
"add tile number for score" is not in the rules.
If you want to assign a "key special rule" for this expansion, I'd say it's the Archbisschop, who counts roads connected to the cathedral, not neighbouring tiles like a cloister.
It also has a rule that gives 2 points per road tile when you score a road connected to it. And an extra rule with 3 points when an Inn is involved. And a special rule that counts roads segments instead of road tiles.

Let me explain to you.
1,Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities,Mage also doesn't give +1 for wells in roads.So it is not odd.The rule designer write the tile +1 means not including shield and well,he didn't know the new special mechanics like Cathedrals in Germany.
I agree with this. Shields and wells (a fan expansion) give extra points, they're comparable to road segments on German Cathedral that can also give extra points to roads. All of these are not extra tiles.

2,GC  change count  tile  to count road on GC tile,the little building is not changed.Just like you have one big room,you change it two small rooms.But the dog in the room is only one.
GC indeed changes count road tile to count road on GC tile. I agree on the Little house only counting once. It counts once because there's only one tile. Only the roads are counted seperately.

GC exception is turn count tile to count road only on GC tile.when you play with inn,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile.So 2 points each tile -----2 points each road on GC tile.
when you play with Mage and leipzig,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile,so +1 point each tile -----+1 point each road on GC tile,it is same special mechanic.
Because Inn, and German Cathedrals, are road point modifiers. You score a road on a tile only once (never more than once on the same tile) except on German Cathedral. The roads are then worth 2 or 3 points.
Normallya road is the same as a road tile, but not on German Cathedral. The German Cathedral tile is not 2 or more road tiles.
Mage looks at number of tiles in the scored feature. Not road tiles. Not road segments. Not road score.
Markets of Leipzig looks at the number of road tiles. German Cathedrals is 1 tile with more than 1 road.

Markets of Leipzig works very much like Inns, but community decided to treat it like bonus score that gives +1 points per road tile (earlier in this topic)., instead of road feature score multiplier. This was because of slightly different rules (+1/road tile instead of road tile worth 2 points) and to make it consistent with the other quarters of Leipzig.

The official rules are unclear if Markets of Leipzig is feature score or bonus score (i.e. after Witch), and they are not clear on if "road segments count seperately" applies to the whole road or just Cathedral tile, and they are not clear on if "Inn is 3 points per road tile" applies to the Cathedral's second road segment, and they use road, road segment, and road tile interchangeably.

If you want to play with your choice of interpretation of these rules, then that's fine, and not even against the official rules. Playing with a system of family rules, or house rules is also fine.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2019, 02:01:52 PM »
Hi all,

It took me some time but finally I updated the following WICA pages.

* Cathedrals in Germany: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany_(1st_edition)
* Labyrinths: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Labyrinths

The revision is related to road scoring as you may imagine:
* Reviewed German Cathedrals to contain the use of "road segments" only for German Cathedral tiles. So the wording is halfway the German one and original English one. Added also an scoring example combining German Cathedrals and Mage.
* Updated the table on road scoring in The Labyrinths.

Additionally the following dynamic pages were updated:

* Scoring During the Game for C1/C2/WE
* Scoring After the Game for C1/C2/WE

These pages now include information about:
- A revision of road and German Cathedral evaluation during and after the game with the inclusion of tunnels.
- The scoring evaluation order indicating (in yellow) what features conform the core feature scoring.
- Annotations about what features can trigger a castle scoring (marked with a small castle token)
- Annotations about what features score points that robbers can steal from (marked with a small robber figure). 

Check, for example, the C2 versions here:
* Scoring During the Game: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game
* Scoring After the Game: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game

Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
Avoid the indefinition of the rules have unexpected consequences when interacting with other expansions.

Now I know the reason you choose this rule clarification.

I have played more than 100 fan-made expansions ,my family rule is good with them.
It is very hard work to know what is core feature score?what is bonus?
Even if you can distinguish them, I can not remember it because too much expansions.

So I insist on my family rule until you have clear standard how to distinguish core feature score and bonus.


Hope this solves some of your questions, yezhenhan.

Cheers!
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2019, 12:14:46 PM »
Hi all,

Here's a little quiz for a relaxing moment in the busy summer.

During a game of mega Carcassonne combining expansions from the new edition plus a little something of the classic one, the red player has just finished a road and it's time to score. He really needs your help because the road has a bit of everything including the witch...

How many points should Red score?



Let's recap what we discussed about the result to this quiz:

1. The Watchtower scores 2 points
2. The Road scores 8 + 10 = 18 points
    - Core Feature scoring + Witch: RoundUp ( 15 / 2 ) = 8 points
       - Core Feature Scoring: ( 4 tiles + 1 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 1 point/tile due to road + 1 point/tile due to German Cathedral + 1 point/tile due to Inn ) = 5 * 3 points = 15 points
    - Other Bonuses: 10 points
       - Markets of Leipzig Wainwrights Quarter: 5 tiles x 1 point/tile = 5 points
       - Little Buildings: 2 Little Buildings * 1 point/building = 2 points
       - German Castle: 1 German Castle * 3 points/castle = 3 points

So Red scores 2 + 18 points = 20 points
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:09:56 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2019, 12:25:06 PM »
I have no problem with Markets of Leipzig counting as bonus score whatsoever. The only negative I see is in how the scoring mechanism for roads is so very similar to Inns and German Cathedrals. But the rules in the rulebooklets are already different; Wainwright Quarter gives +1 bonus point per road tile, Inns give 2 points per road tile, German Cathedrals give 2 points per road tile, and Inn+German Cathedral gives 3 points per road tile. The "+1" is a different mechanic than "gives 2 points".

The points from the other quarters of Leipzig are easily understood as bonus points. And by using these as an example, and the Meeple in Leipzig, or Leipzig itself, doing the scoring for the player, it's pretty easy to explain.
tbh I would be equally happy if all these scores were core feature scores (ie before the witch) but the most important thing is a community consensus (by lack of an official ruling).

As for the 2nd "puzzle":
The road is worth 0 at games end, but it is scored. Mage adds +1/tile so +5 points. Little houses are worth their normal value at the final counting so 2 x +1. Total 7 points.

So here's another one:


from the rules:

Special rule when scoring a road, unlike the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately - i.e. that tile counts twice.

When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.

Let's recap what we discussed about the result to this quiz by benbever:

1. The Road scores 15 + 4 = 19 points
    - Core Feature Scoring: ( 3 tiles + 2 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 1 point/tile due to road + 1 point/tile due to German Cathedral + 1 point/tile due to Inns ) = 5 * 3 points = 15 points
    - Other Bonuses: 4 points
       - Markets of Leipzig Wainwrights Quarter: 4 tiles x 1 point/tile = 4 points
 
So the player scores 19 points
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:11:19 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2019, 12:43:07 PM »
How about this one:


Let's recap what we discussed about the result to this quiz by benbever:

1. The Road scores 15 + 10 = 25 points
    - Core Feature Scoring: ( 3 tiles + 2 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 1 point/tile due to road + 1 point/tile due to German Cathedral + 1 point/tile due to Inns ) = 5 * 3 points = 15 points
    - Other Bonuses: 10 points
       - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 point/tile = 4 tiles
       - Markets of Leipzig Wainwrights Quarter: 4 tiles * 1 point/tile = 4 points
       - Little Buildings: 2 Little Buildings * 1 point/building = 2 points
 
So the player scores 25 points
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:12:16 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2019, 02:04:45 PM »
Let's recap the solution to this example:



The road is not completed and it has an Inn, so the scoring after the game should be as follows:

1. The Road scores 0 + 7 = 7 points
    - Core Feature Scoring: ( 4 tiles + 1 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 0 points/tile due to Inn ) = 5 * 0 points = 0 points
    - Other Bonuses: 7 points
       - Mage: 5 tiles * 1 point/tile = 5 tiles
       - Little Buildings: 2 Little Buildings * 1 point/building = 2 points
 
So Red will score 7 points.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:13:21 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2019, 02:53:20 PM »
So... Three questions in this line of thought about the picture below:

1) Easy question: How many road tiles are there in this road to compute anybtile-based bonus (Mage or Wainwright quarter bonus)?
2) Difficult question: How many road segments are there in this road to compute the core feature scoring?
3) Intriguing question: Which tiles are we actually counting more than once because of the road segment issue? Just the German Cathedral tile?

I was assuming a road segment is a road stretch on a tile (it works perfectly with German Cathedral tiles.) But in this case, what happens with the tunnel tiles and the RRRR tile (RrRr if we use the notation discussed in another topic) mentioned in my previous post? Are they just treated as simple tiles no matter the road configuration and only the German Cathedral tile has a special treatment?

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

Let's recap the solution to this quiz:




Quote
1) Easy question: How many road tiles are there in this road to compute any tile-based bonus (Mage or Wainwright quarter bonus)?

There are 10 tiles.

Quote
2) Difficult question: How many road segments are there in this road to compute the core feature scoring?

There are 15 road segments if we count each road stretch independently no matter the same tile is counted twice.

Quote
3) Intriguing question: Which tiles are we actually counting more than once because of the road segment issue? Just the German Cathedral tile?

If we count all the road segments, the following tiles are counted multiple times:
- The German Cathedral tile (2 times)
- The RrRr tile with the two roads (2 times)
- The tile with two tunnel entrances (2 times)
- The tile with three tunnel entrances ( 3 times )

This was just an exercise to demonstrate that extending the use of road segments to a whole road network when German Cathedrals are involved can lead to unexpected side effects with tunnels and some road tiles with special layouts.

In order to score this road when completed we are assuming road segments are counted separately only on the German Cathedral tile, if present. This means, the road network depicted in the picture above would be scored as follows:
1. Core Feature Scoring: The presence of a German Cathedral means, the score will be calculated based on 11 tiles:
    - 9 tiles without counting the German Cathedral tile. (Tunnel tiles are counted once no matter how many tunnel entrances are connected to the road network.)
    - 2 road segments counted separately on the German Cathedral tile. (It would be equivalent to counting the Cathedral tile twice so to speak.)
2. Other bonuses: Wainwrights Quarter (Markets of Leipzig) and Mage will take into account only the tiles, no matter the presence of German Cathedrals in the road network. This means, these bonuses are calculated based on 10 tiles.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:23:59 PM by Meepledrone »


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